Historic Auctions: spin on a David Wright helmet

**kingjammy24** · 11-15-2006, 03:57 PM

Re: Historic Auctions: spin on a David Wright helmet

forgot to mention:

here is the historic link to the helmet:

http://www.historicauctions.com/search/list/auctionid/33186/

here is kim stigall's coa on the helmet:

rudy.

**hblakewolf** · 11-15-2006, 04:06 PM

Re: Historic Auctions: spin on a David Wright helmet

Rudy-
As always, simply AMAZING work!

What are your thoughts on their "1984 Pete Rose Expos gamer"

http://www.historicauctions.com/index.cfm?&fuseaction=search.ShowPhotos&auctionid=32860

What a fine example of a retail jersey being sold as a gamer:
1. Incorrect sewing on the Rawljngs tag
2. Void of correct year/set tagging

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

**MVP** · 11-15-2006, 04:09 PM

0062 tags sewn on top of seam

Just scanned the Historic Auction site. I noticed that the 0062 tag on the BIGGIO, OSWALT , and PUJOLS have been sewn on top of the seam. All of the team issued 0062 tags I have seen are sewn into the seam during manufacturing... not on top. Can anyone confirm if this is correct?

-Henry

**MVP** · 11-15-2006, 04:24 PM

Re: Historic Auctions: spin on a David Wright helmet

This is the thread I was talking about:

Game Used Forums

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?p=23945#post23945

**TNTtoys** · 11-15-2006, 04:59 PM

Re: Historic Auctions: spin on a David Wright helmet

Originally posted by hblakewolf

What are your thoughts on their "1984 Pete Rose Expos gamer"

http://www.historicauctions.com/index.cfm?&fuseaction=search.ShowPhotos&auctionid=32860

What a fine example of a retail jersey being sold as a gamer:
1. Incorrect sewing on the Rawljngs tag
2. Void of correct year/set tagging

What an abomination... tags on the outside of the jersey, and sewn with 2 vertical stitches on the sides -- all characteristics of a retail jersey. Pretty bad lettering job in addition. And... how could Rose have fit into a size 42 at this point in his career?

Course it has the traditional James Spence authentication -- for those who don't know any better would again assume that he's authenticating the entire jersey, not just the signature.

**kingjammy24** · 11-15-2006, 05:03 PM

Re: Historic Auctions: spin on a David Wright helmet

mvp,

excellent eye!

i've put the biggio and pujols into their own threads:

Game Used Forums

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=5579

Game Used Forums

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=5578

personally, the oswalt photo is too bright to be able to see clearly.

again, good eye!

rudy.

**kingjammy24** · 11-15-2006, 05:09 PM

Re: Historic Auctions: spin on a David Wright helmet

howard,

you are correct regarding the rose jersey. the rawlings tagging is a dead giveaway that it's a retail jersey.

"brad wells - foremost expert and head authenticator".

rudy.

**kingjammy24** · 12-14-2006, 07:05 PM

Re: Historic Auctions: spin on a David Wright helmet

in a couple of hours, someone's about to pay over $800 for a store-model jersey.

http://www.historicauctions.com/search/list/auctionid/32860/

i hope that pete rose autograph is worth $750+

rudy.

**rjdgonebats** · 12-16-2006, 03:07 PM

Re: Historic Auctions: spin on a David Wright helmet

I saw the post RE: washtags sewn only on the inside with the seam and not on top. I hope that the word ,never, was not used. Because I have seen the tag on the top sewn with the exact stiching that the seam shows. That would be pretty tough to duplicate. The jersey I have this way has been authenticated by Mears with no problems.The tags shown on thses posts E.G. The pujols jersey does look like it was tampered with. but before we rush to judgement,that all wash tagging sewn on top , have been tampered with after factiory sewing may not be a correct conclusion. Does anybody else have any thoughts on the matter ??

**kingjammy24** · 12-16-2006, 05:30 PM

Re: Historic Auctions: spin on a David Wright helmet

hello rjdgone

can you post a pic of the jersey/seam you're talking about?

"I have seen the tag on the top sewn with the exact stiching that the seam shows. That would be pretty tough to duplicate."

why do you think it would be tough to duplicate?

the seams on gamers are stitched almost identically to most commercially or industrially manufacturered clothing that is made out of knits. take a look at any t-shirt or even a retail jersey and you'll notice the seams are stitched very similarly, if not identically. regardless of what the garment is, when you're dealing with a knit (as jerseys are), there's a standard way of stitching the seams especially in commercial settings. the vast majority of commercial manufacturers use what's called an overlock or serger machine to stitch these seams. the reason the seams and stitches all look the same is because it's the same type of machine doing the same type of stitching across the entire industry. russell or majestic aren't deviating from standard apparel manufacturing processes. the specific style of stitching we're discussing is called an "overlock stitch".

the thing is, overlock machines or sergers are inexpensive and widely available to the most novice of sewing hobbyists. you can purchase one at most retail sewing stores or even on amazon. the home versions cost a few hundred dollars while the industrial models cost a few thousand. anyone can purchase an overlock machine which will produce the exact style of stitching you see on legit gamers. it's not tough to duplicate in the least. it's a widely known, commonly used process.

"The jersey I have this way has been authenticated by Mears with no problems."

i'm not sure this carries as much weight as you think. did you know mears once authenticated a roger clemens astros jersey that had the wrong color numbers on the back? if bat expert bushing misses something like that, do you really think he's examining whether the seams have been tampered with? does bushing even know what a tampered seam looks like?

a jersey speaks for itself. no amount of "authentications" can make a bad jersey good. if you're depending on the mears authentication and a belief that noone has their own overlock machine then you may be in for a surprise. the stitching on the historic pujols is the work of a sloppy buffoon. i have little doubt there are better forgers out there who most likely have sergers.

"..before we rush to judgement,that all wash tagging sewn on top , have been tampered with after factiory sewing may not be a correct conclusion."

i have no doubt that majestic has a single, standardized manufacturing process for their game jerseys. a tag sewn on top would appear to deviate from this standardized process. if i were a betting man, i'd say that a tag sewn on top, with an overlock stitch, isn't evidence that majestic sews its tags in 2 different ways. i'd say it's evidence that someone out there purchased a $300 serger.

however, the beauty of these tags and seams is that their construction makes it impossible to make a flawless forgery. if someone really wanted to pull off a great looking fake seam and wash tag, they'd tear apart the original seam, insert the tag, and apply an overlock stitch back to the entire seam. however, even in this case, you'd be able to see the previous/original stitch holes. even the savviest of forgers has no way to cover up the evidence that the seam was tampered with.

for more on overlock machines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serger

rudy.

**both-teams-played-hard** · 12-16-2006, 05:59 PM

Re: Historic Auctions: spin on a David Wright helmet

So, where is Ball Park Heroes' LOA? Was it mentioned in the auction listing?
Are we to believe an Expert Authenticator Historic Auctions LOA carries more weight than one from Kim Stigall?

"It don't make no sense"

**kingjammy24** · 12-18-2006, 05:41 PM

Re: Historic Auctions: spin on a David Wright helmet

warren,

the original listing stated the helmet was "sourced from the Mets". after i started this thread, the listing was changed and that statement was removed.all of a sudden the helmet was no longer from the Mets apparently. how it goes from being from the Mets to not being from the Mets i don't know. smooth work on james browns part though. i imagine kim stigall's loa is sitting in some dumpsite in florida. neither ballpark heroes nor their loa was mentioned due to, i imagine, the fact that historic was saying it was "sourced from the mets".
when it was revealed that it was actually sourced from turtlegrrl18's ebay spree, i imagine it was too late for historic to reverse course on the provenance.

rudy.

Historic Auctions: spin on a David Wright helmet

Historic Auctions: spin on a David Wright helmet

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