Question about Bernie's items

[Bernie J. Gernay]

Re: Question about Bernie's items

Yes, I received documentation from the Redskins when I purchased that game used Portis jersey.

Onto the Curtis Martin...

It is very clear that you are a newbie collector. That is ok. I'll gladly walk you through this. Let me explain how it works when a team goes into a transition stage with the jersey manufacturer. When teams went from Puma to Reebok (good example the Rams), or Starter to Puma (good example the Vikings), Nike to Reebok (Jets, Giants, Ravens, etc) the team will sew the new jersey manufacturer logo (usually a rectangle shaped box) over the old manufacturer logo so that the teams may wear it for the following season(s). This was common for almost every team from 1999-2002. This is something known by even the common novice football collector. Hope that clears up some confusion for you.

[Eric]

gujerseylover please email me

Message to GUJERSEYLOVER

Please email me ASAP, I need to talk to you about something.

I can be found at ecky3@aol.com

Eric

[apujols04]

Re: Question about Bernie's items

Yes, I received documentation from the Redskins when I purchased that game used Portis jersey.

Onto the Curtis Martin...

It is very clear that you are a newbie collector. That is ok. I'll gladly walk you through this. Let me explain how it works when a team goes into a transition stage with the jersey manufacturer. When teams went from Puma to Reebok (good example the Rams), or Starter to Puma (good example the Vikings), Nike to Reebok (Jets, Giants, Ravens, etc) the team will sew the new jersey manufacturer logo (usually a rectangle shaped box) over the old manufacturer logo so that the teams may wear it for the following season(s). This was common for almost every team from 1999-2002. This is something known by even the common novice football collector. Hope that clears up some confusion for you.

Bernie,

Please do not take this as an attack on you. I think it's great you just shared the info on the Martin jersey and the different things NFL teams often have done.

The one concern I have is that when you and certain other people posting on this thread (HOF F89) expressed concern in regards to the 2 patches incl. the year patch on my Terry Bradshaw jersey. I also remember people here wondering why the numbers and nameplate were loosly stitched--and making the type of accusations which have since been not allowed for legal resons...finally. Since these things were of question, I did some research. i do not remember you ever sharing the information readily available from AMI auction descriptions (from Ecksen and lampson sp). The claims were that Steelers jerseys were sometimes sewn loosly on the nameplate and numbers due to wanting the numbers to tear off if pulled hard instead on the entire jersey tearing. ONE of the descriptions of AMI's vintage steelers jerseys from the era of my bradshaw jersey clearly stated that the numbers and/or nameplate were often stitched loose in the factory to prevent the jersey from ripping--cause they could just restitch the number if it was sewn loosly and tore off.

other interesting facts in the AMI auction decriptions of 1970's G/U steelers jerseys state that eccentric (sp?) steelers equiptment managers would remove tage from the jerseys during/after the seasons and reapply them when requested for charity auctions or other events. thus, maybe one tag is diritier that another because they were the tags the equiption managers later chose to reapply. A wrong year tag on a bradshaw jersey? Well, according to bernie, this can happen as with a quirky year tag on the martin jersey. anything is possible. maybe even bernie's manning jersey is legit. Who are we to call Bernie a liar?

i think if you can come online to the forum and post doubts about a jersey and accusations (legal ramifications?) at a seller, you bettter check your facts first. nobody including hof89 and bernie told me of these quirks about the steelers jerseys while they spent 5 pages trying to disprove my jerseys.

[gameusedfan]

Re: Question about Bernie's items

As one of the "newbies" I can tell you all (including Eric) that I deeply appreciate these kinds of arguments. There may be some verbal venom being spewn around but the underlying debates are incredibly enlightening. I have been collecting small stuff for a couple years now but in '05 I moved up to the game used part of the hobby and have spent approximately $20k at four different auction houses. Fortunately, I have done well in business so I have the resources to collect. But it is comforting to know that with knowledge comes confidence. I just want whoever is debating to realize that taking time to educate others (such as Bernie just did with the Martin jersey) will only enhance the values of their own collections.

New blood with money to spend is the ultimate way to ensure that the values of your own collections rises in value. I personally appreciate these arguments.

Roger

P.S. If anyone comes across any pre-1980 Eagles related, one-of-a-kind items, that they want to sell, email me.

[EndzoneSports]

Re: Question about Bernie's items

Patrick:

Since PSI explicitly states it gets all of it's jerseys from either 1) players or 2) equipment managers I simply wanted to know if it came from either Montana or Hinek. That's all. I didn't think it was accusatory. Merely an inquiry as to the origins, given that PSI has stated there are only 2 possibilities. As well, I was curious why PSI doesn't offer Colts documentation as many teams these days offer documentation to their buyers. I don't know of a more polite, flowery way of asking.

Nobody called anyone a crook. Nobody said don't place any faith in anyone. Nobody said spend 10 hrs online searching through "every conceivable getty image". I'm very surprised there's any opposition whatsoever to the simple idea that "due diligence is always required".
(Regardless of how it was done back when Truman was in office, due diligence does not simply mean trusting your source and I can't imagine you disagree with me on that).

Rudy.

Rudy-

First off, my apologies for the delay in response, but daily scans of and replies to posts on this forum aren’t generally at the top of my ‘to do’ list. No offense intended. Also, no need to take offense to and/or become defensive if I should respond to a thread in which you’ve posted. Particularly when I address the response to ‘all’ rather than to you directly. This was not meant to take a dig at any specific thing that you said, it was simply a response to the general air of distain that permeated this thread and many others like it. It started with the inflammatory title of the original posting and then just degraded from there including, I might add, comments from you. So I in this instance, if the jersey fits…

If, as you stated in your response to me, all you wanted to know was the source of the jersey, why in your reply to Bernie did you have to bury that question in the fourth paragraph after first spending the first three paragraphs criticizing his response to someone else? While not suggesting that you need to find a “flowery way of asking”, I most certainly contend that there could have been a more courteous and professional way to pose the question, if this was indeed the only purpose of your post.

But again, my final point was not to specifically cast criticism for the action or words of any one person. It was to point out that there are way too many examples of this type of activity occurring. A lot of the hobby’s “insiders” will continue to remain on the outside of this forum, refusing to participate, as long as it continues to be perceived as a place where topics are not discussed in a manner in which an educational exchange of information can occur in a non-offending environment for all participants.

Respectfully,

[both-teams-played-hard]

Re: Question about Bernie's items

A lot of the hobby’s “insiders” will continue to remain on the outside of this forum, refusing to participate, as long as it continues to be perceived as a place where topics are not discussed in a manner in which an educational exchange of information can occur in a non-offending environment for all participants.

Who are these "insiders", and how can this forum benefit from their participation?

[EndzoneSports]

Re: Question about Bernie's items

Who are these "insiders", and how can this forum benefit from their participation?

These "insiders" to which I refer, are a good many of those expereinced hobbyists who have been involved in the buying, selling, and trading of game-used/worn memorabilia for 20, 30 or more years and generally are the folks often handling (and/or holding) many of the hobby's premium pieces. This as opposed to the 20-year-old Johnny-come-lately who's been at it for 3 or 4 years, thinks he knows everything there is to know, and spends most of his time trying to photo match all of those quality gems being circulated on eBay.

What do we have to gain from these insiders? How about decades of accumulated infomation, education and wisdom? Much of which, these folks would be glad to share, if only we were able to provide an environment condusive to their feeling welcome to participate.

Regards,

[bat_master]

The Insiders

Hello All,

I can only wish that I had been a collector for 20 years or more. I think that in a hobby like this it is extremely important that as a group we have experienced veterans. As any sports team will tell you it is almost necessary to have veteran leadership when trying to accomplish a goal.

It is because of the hobby veterans that Patrick wrote of that many of the really great pieces of this hobby have been saved from the card company chopping block. I know that as I dove deeper into collecting I started to become concerned that so many of the "treasures" of the game were being cut up to become cards.

After I read through some of the stories in the "Smithsonian Baseball" book it really hit home that there are still spectacular items being held in private collections that will likely never have to face being cut up. I guess I really don't have to worry so much that down the road there won't be any complete Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Ted Williams, Ty Cobb, or Mickey Mantle uniforms out there; existing only in a patchwork quilt of cardboard circa 2005.

Tim Byington

[Eric]

Re: Question about Bernie's items

Patrick-

Thank you for the explanation.

As you know Chris Cavalier and I are working very hard to create an atmosphere that allows people to ask questions, offer opinions and comment about the hobby in an intelligent matter.

To those hobby veterans you speak of who have years of experience but do not want to participate in this site because of the bickering, I invite them to contact me at ecky3@aol.com so we can discuss a way they can share information on the forum in a way they'd be comfortable with. Perhaps give these insiders the chance to write articles about their years in the hobby, or a chance to showcase the premium items in their collections.

I would be very excited about the idea of finding any way to include these folks. I love the hobby and would look forward to learning as much as I possibly can about it. Any information they share here would be a huge advantage to educating the people Patrick referred to as those forum members who are new to the hobby.

I am interested in anyones thoughts on this.
Eric
moderator

[kingjammy24]

Re: Question about Bernie's items

"Much of which, these folks would be glad to share, if only we were able to provide an environment condusive to their feeling welcome to participate."

Ok, vague notions of an "environment condusive to feeling welcome" aside, what does this actually entail? I'm constantly hearing how the Lampsons' and Imperatos' of the world are only too willing to come here and share all of their knowledge if only we would "change the environment". Seeing as how I'm sure many on this Forum would like to have these people join us, what exactly should we do to coax them here?

"This as opposed to the 20-year-old Johnny-come-lately who's been at it for 3 or 4 years, thinks he knows everything there is to know, and spends most of his time trying to photo match all of those quality gems being circulated on eBay."

Patrick, this Forum needs all sorts of collectors. Beginners, veterans, and everyone in between.
How 'welcome' are new collectors going to feel when users like yourself and Bernie act condescending towards anyone who didn't start collecting when Pie Traynor was playing ball?

Why write such a derogatory description of new collectors, rather than simply call them new or inexperienced without any of that additional vitriol?
Why not then also describe experienced collectors in a similarly derogatory way as "50-yr-old, crusty, elitist relics who think if they don't know it, then it's not true, who have nothing better to do all day then deride young collectors and anyone else who doesn't authenticate a jersey simply using their fading memory and a couple of glorified anecdotes they picked up while getting loaded with Mickey Mantle at Toots Shore's"?

"If, as you stated in your response to me, all you wanted to know was the source of the jersey, why in your reply to Bernie did you have to bury that question in the fourth paragraph after first spending the first three paragraphs criticizing his response to someone else?"

Because at that point I was more concerned with Bernie's constant condescension towards new members than his 49'ers jersey, which I had already asked about several times over in numerous different threads. I never received an answer and don't believe I ever will.

"A lot of the hobby’s “insiders” will continue to remain on the outside of this forum, refusing to participate, as long as it continues to be perceived as a place where topics are not discussed in a manner in which an educational exchange of information can occur in a non-offending environment for all participants."

Patrick, as you said in an earlier post, this Forum for the most part is simply a mirror of society. I'm genuinely hard-pressed to find very many malicious or offensive comments on here. I see genuine disagreements, I see alot of 'educational exchange of information' occuring on a daily basis, and I see a lot of people passionate about this hobby helping each other out. I don't see flame wars, I don't see vulgarity, and I don't see a whole lot of offensive posts. Whenever any of these occur, Eric or Chris are pretty quick to shut it down. Oddly enough, what I do continue to find offensive are the pictures you paint of new collectors as a "20-year old kid who can afford to sit online all day because he has no job and lives with his parents" as you described in an earlier post. As much as you feel this Forum is somehow unwelcoming to 'insiders', I imagine comments like yours are unwelcoming to new collectors.

Rudy.

[ChrisCavalier]

Re: Question about Bernie's items

A lot of the hobby’s “insiders” will continue to remain on the outside of this forum, refusing to participate, as long as it continues to be perceived as a place where topics are not discussed in a manner in which an educational exchange of information can occur in a non-offending environment for all participants.

Hello Patrick-

Thank you for your feedback in your post. While I do understand there are some people out there that may have established some general opinions about this forum, I believe we have come a long way in promoting a "non-offending environment" for forum participants. In fact, I think the new rules that have been put in place, along with Eric moderating, has really brought this forum to place where "offensive" posts are weeded out very quickly. However, I am willing to admit if I am mistaken about the progress this forum has made in creating a more positive environment and would be very open to any suggestions you may have.

Please let us know what other processes you think need to be implemented to ensure the non threatening environment these hobby "insiders" are seeking. This forum is committed to creating a place where no member will ever have to feel that they will be subjected to any unfounded attacks, etc. when participating. Thus, if you have any suggestions we are open to hear them. However, you can feel confident letting these "insiders", or anyone else you know for that matter, know that this forum is not -- nor will in be the future -- a place were an offensive environment will be tolerated. In that you have our promise.

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier
CEO - Game Used Universe

[EndzoneSports]

Re: Question about Bernie's items

One last shot at this to clear the air of a couple misconceptions and then hopefully I can put this one to bed...

First to Rudy:

After re-reading my original post, I can see how my choice of words in describing a particular stereotype that I had in mind could have been misconstrued so as being derogatory towards young collectors. This was NOT my intent and for this I apologize to any whom I may have offended. Some 15 to 20 years ago, I WAS that 20-year old novice, collector. Instead, my intent was to stereotype the IMMATURE collector, with full recognition that immaturity is not bounded by chronological age. It is no doubt immaturity, not inexperience, that poses the greater risk to the success of this forum, leave no doubt about that.

Secondly, I stand by my opinion that the success of this forum would be greatly enhanced with the participation of those from all facets and levels of the hobby--dealers and collectors, the 50-year-old veterans and the 20-year-old new comers. Each and every one has something valuable to bring to the table. As far as needing to "coax them here", in many cases, it's not necessary. They're already here! As one forum member stated in another post/thread, (and I paraphrase) "Don't you think these guys at least read the boards and know what's going on?". Two of the three "insiders" to which I referred read the posts on this board on at least a semi-regular basis. It is because of their familiarity with some of the antics that they refuse to actively participate.

So what do we need to do? It's hard to get into their minds and know for sure, but the criticisms that I hear are not those of the outright attacks, flaming, and vulgarity that you mention, but rather the more subtle personal agendas that certain members seem to have where they are going to call into question every inventory item of a particular dealer or every item offered by a given auction house or every item blessed by a given authenticator. Don't get me wrong, one of the great benefits of this forum is to point out potential problems. When, however, within a few short weeks of observing, a new member can easily establish the pattern of who's needling whom, you start to get the feeling that it's not just about pointing out the occasional random problem. Part two--and one of my personal criticisms in the time that I've been participating here--is also the lack of dignity and professionalism in which potential problems are brought to light. It would be hard to coax any new participants to this venue when we've shown though our collective past performance that, at first slip, whether intentional or otherwise, that they're likely to be metaphorically drawn and quartered as we make them look like either idiots or crooks. Should we address the issues? Sure. Couldn't it be done without the unnecessary rhetoric that seems to state, (as just one example) "Look what that bonehead Bernie has done this time!"


To Eric/Chris:

First off, my commendations for the work done to date and particularly the changes made most recently as I truly believe that this is a step in the right direction. In my response to Rudy above, I've also touched on some of your concerns as well.

This most certainly is not an environment where Eric is apt to allow open attacks to go unfettered as these are quickly cut off at the knees. While this is easy to regulate and monitor, the seemingly more abstract concept of professionalism still seems to elude many of the members--myself included at times, when as I did previously, I post a response without thought of who I might unintentionally offend.

As I've stated previously, I continue to participate here because I strongly believe in the potential that this forum has to offer for education and communication within the hobby and have faith in your leadership to take it forward.

Best regards,