Game Used Redskins Helmet?

[aeneas01]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=014&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=330133823490&rd=1&rd=1

here's a very nice looking helmet that's currently up for bid on ebay - a helmet that, imho, would look fantastic displayed on any fan's shelf. but is this helmet actually a game used washington redskins helmet as the ebay ad claims? very, very doubtful in my estimation and for many, many reasons.

the most obvious indication is the redskin decal - the decal appearing on this helmet is a typical stock item available anytime on ebay. because of the ready availability of this stock decal, it's also the decal of choice when it comes to the infamous ebayer flipsyr who uses it on his redskin reproductions. below are three photos of three different helmets - the helmet with the area circled in blue is the helmet in question while the other two photos are from two reproductions that flipsyr sold on ebay. when comparing the area circled in blue you will notice a common "nike-like swish" formed by the transparent border of the decal. this "swish" is evident in all three photos because they are the same stock decal. the redskins have never used such a decal. there are many, many more inconsistencies as well.




now here are several looks at authentic redskin decals some of which are from the same era of the helmet in question - i think it's pretty easy to see the many, many discrepancies but for starters, again compare the area circled in blue to the one above.



here are a few photos of the more modern skins decal - again the discrepencies can be seen.



i'm also somewhat skeptical as to the authenticity of the facemask clips - while there's no way to be certain unless the helmet is in hand, the clips appear to be new reproductions purchased from helmet hut. i say this because it's more common than not for vintage yellow facemask clips to become a deep orange with age. here are a few examples of authentic yellow facemask clips:





here's a photo of when this helmet last sold on ebay in oct-nov of 2006 - it sold for $370 inclusive of s&h. i have no idea if it was originally listed as game used.



am i calling the current seller a crook? absolutely not. but as i've mentioned before i feel that it's wrong to list a helmet as a "game used team helmet" without solid support. and i especially think it's wrong to list a helmet as a "game used team helmet" when it has as many holes in it as this one does.

btw the seller mentions in the ad that "type c suspension pads may help date the helemt". if the seller happens onto this forum and reads this post, he might want to check the inside shell of the helmet around the crown area for a date stamp (a circle divided in half with the month on one side and year on the other).

[Eric]

Re: Game Used Redskins Helmet?

Good stuff.

What's the Chargers helmet you pictured above with the fouts sig. Is that from your collection or your research materials?

Also, would you start a separate thread showing people how to locate the date stamp in game used helmets? I think that would be tremendously helpful for people.

Thanks again for the post
Eric

[aeneas01]

Re: Game Used Redskins Helmet?

Good stuff.

What's the Chargers helmet you pictured above with the fouts sig. Is that from your collection or your research materials?

Also, would you start a separate thread showing people how to locate the date stamp in game used helmets? I think that would be tremendously helpful for people.

Thanks again for the post
Eric

eric - the bolts' helmet pictured above sold on ebay in december of 2006 for $185 inclusive of s&h. frankly, i thought it would go for much more but the fact it was missing much of its internal padding kept many bidders away imo. also, iirc, the seller didn't makes any claims as far as the helmet being an actual game used bolts' lid so who knows if that impacted the price as well. what i love most about the lid is that it's a very rare rawlings "headliner" suspension helmet which is the type of rawlings jack lambert (among others) wore throughout his career - i'm a big rawlings helmet fan and own several headliners myself; they are mean looking helmets! as far as the fouts sig is concerned, i've never been interested in autographs and have no idea whether it even appears remotely authentic or not.

when i get a chance i will definitely start a thread showing how to locate and read helmet date clocks/stamps; it's very useful info when trying to determine a helmet's authenticity. i think i'll also post photo examples of the evolution of the plastic football helmet starting with the first models (riddell's transparent tenite lids) and ending with the helmets we now see today - some members might find this interesting.

as far as the skins' helmet is concerned, it's a perfect example of why collecting helmets can be so frustrating these days - especially if you are new to the hobby and are looking for an authentic game used lid. imo it was a great day when college and pro knock-off decals became so readily available to the public as it gave all fans the ability to put together their own great looking helmets. i mean for a modest investment, anyone can now put together one heck of a great looking lid - even a lid specifically tailored to one's favorite player. and, needless to say, these do-it-yourself custom helmets will blow away any riddell "pro line" model.

but, unfortunately, these readily available knock-off decals have also caused a lot of havoc - as i've mentioned before, many unscrupulous dealers put together helmets using these knock-off decals and try to pass them off as authentic (such as ebayers lambeauleeper, flipsyr, etc.) - then you have the honest traders that unsuspectingly got their hands on one of these knock-offs thinking it was authentic and they in turn, albeit innocently, perpetuate the problem by selling them as authentic game used/worn as well.

again, the readily available decals on ebay are not what the pros use - they are close facsimiles but upon close inspection do not hold up under scrutiny. how can one tell the difference? a person has to really want to have the real mccoy and be prepared to make close comparisons. for example, look at the bridge of the nose on the authentic redskins decals pictured above and compare it with the knock-offs also pictured above; as is the case with most authentic decals, the details are usually much more pronounced. with the knock-offs the bridge of the nose forms a lazy sweep - with the authentic decals the bridge of the nose is more exact, more realistic.

here's another typical example - below you have a set of knock-off longhorns decals that sell by the boatload on ebay. even worse, helmets with these decals claiming to be game issued also sell. compare the lazy, rounded edges of the knock-offs to the sharp details of the authentic decal (actually, the details of the authentic decals are even more pronounced when seen in person - nostrils, ears, top of head, etc.). while the differences seem more than obvious, many buyers don't even notice the difference.

[ChrisCavalier]

Re: Game Used Redskins Helmet?

Hello aeneas01,

Thank you for the great posts with such useful information. In addition, as per the rules/goals of the forum, would you be able to contact the seller with your comments? Along with giving the seller a chance to respond to your concerns, it may also help disseminate this information further to those involved with a potential transaction of this item.

Thank you in advance for your reply.

Sincerely,
Chris

[aeneas01]

Re: Game Used Redskins Helmet?

Hello aeneas01,

Thank you for the great posts with such useful information. In addition, as per the rules/goals of the forum, would you be able to contact the seller with your comments? Along with giving the seller a chance to respond to your concerns, it may also help disseminate this information further to those involved with a potential transaction of this item.

Thank you in advance for your reply.

Sincerely,
Chris

chirs:

while i respect your your concerns and understand the forum's position in this matter, contacting sellers can be a very complicated proposition for many reasons - i've contacted countless sellers during the past few years when i've found discrepancies in their claims and, trust me, their responses are rarely positive or constructive.

also, contacting sellers with concerns often makes matters worse - for example, i've also found that when presented with this sort of information, sellers will often use it to their advantage by quickly cancelling their auction only to relist the item using ebay's "user id kept private" option to ensure prospective bidders cannot be alerted (ebay) - lambeauleeper and flipsyr, two ebayers that are notorious for misrepresenting football helmets, have learned to now use this ebay option exclusively as a result of being confronted so often with such discrepancies by collectors.

while it's been my experience that there are a few sellers that will genuinely consider such information and correct any errors, they represent such a small number - unfortunately, the vast majority will threaten, ignore, lie and/or, get this, flatly admit to their shenanigans and tell you there's nothing you can do about it - and they're right. except for trying to alert folks on forums such as this.

consequently i've long since retired from the contacting the seller business unless in the rare occassion when i come across something so egregious and so infuriating that i simply can't help but contact the seller - such as the case with delaware/michigan helmet i mentioned in another post.

if i can't post, per forum rules, what i feel to be suspect or blatantly misrepresented listings without first contacting the seller, please let me know and i will no longer post - i just don't have the time for it nor do i any longer have the interest given what i know i will most likely hear in response from the seller. really, no sour grapes here - it would be fine with me.

[possum]

Re: Game Used Redskins Helmet?

Thanks for the effort here aeneas. As a Skins fan who is looking into getting into the helmet collecting I greatly appreciate it.

[aeneas01]

Re: Game Used Redskins Helmet?

this "game used" redskins helmet has been listed again - interestingly, it has been listed by the same seller even tho someone won the auction for $198.50 the last time it was listed in june. perhaps the buyer wised up and backed out of the deal...

anyway, same seller, same helmet, slightly different item description...

current listing:

http://cgi.ebay.com/LATE-80s-WASHINGTON-REDSKINS-GAME-USED-FOOTBALL-HELMET_W0QQitemZ330165722294QQihZ014QQcategoryZ86828QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

previous listing:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=014&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=330133823490&rd=1&rd=1

[jdr3]

Re: Game Used Redskins Helmet?

it's back again. Do people buy this and then realize there's a problem or are there just a plethora?

http://cgi.ebay.com/1980s-GAME-USED-WASHINGTON-REDSKINS-RIDDELL-HELMET_W0QQitemZ330177972125QQihZ014QQcategoryZ37744QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[aeneas01]

Re: Game Used Redskins Helmet?

it's back again. Do people buy this and then realize there's a problem or are there just a plethora?

http://cgi.ebay.com/1980s-GAME-USED-...QQcmdZViewItem

plethora? no, i don't think so given this is the same helmet. but when an item is relisted by the same seller after being "sold" with no negative left for the "buyer", it does make one wonder if it's not a case of shilling where the seller won their own item using a different ebay username. not saying this is the case here...