First fake autograph

[sportsnbikes]

Re: First fake autograph

I paid with paypal and it came from overseas so I have 180 days to file a dispute. The seller also mailed it directly to the authenticator and they just received it a couple of days ago.

While it may just be "one mans opinion" he is a higly respected authenticator in this field and the sellers claim itself without evadince is just one mans opinion. Why should I be happy if I just get a refund, I paid for an item advertized as authentic.

I understand that many people on here may know and trust each other or have great knowledge in there area of collecting but I didn't realize there was such a (as it seems) disdain for 3rd party authenticators on this forum.

Me personally I do not trust any 3rd party company. I have had several items obtained in person that were deemed as not genuine. On the reverse, forged items have been authenticated as genuine. There are several examples out there of both of these.

As I've stated before and others have as well, how many 'experts' are actually working at these authentication companies? How can the 'experts' possibly be looking at every single piece of equipment that comes through their doors? They must have hundreds of experts.

Just because a company says it's not real doesn't mean it isn't. The same goes for the reverse. I wouldn't trust any of them. Their COA's aren't worth the paper they are printed on. I like to use this site to reference some of the fraudulent autographs that have been authenticated.

Bottom line is that if I don't get an autograph myself or authenticated by an IN-PERSON authentication such as Steiner or MLB, I will never truly know if it is real or not.

[Roady]

Re: First fake autograph

Really?
I don't know what to say anymore.
As I have said over and over all It wanted to know is if it was the norm or not to ask the seller for the authentication fees, especially considering they said they guaranteed it would pass. I don't know what you mean by The first two people answered my question, if Mr Moody had never posted I would have said thanks for the advice that would have been that and this thread would have lived in obscurity never to be posted in again. It seems as though your and Mr Moody's point was that I shouldn't have even sent it to an authenticator in the first place. Physics degree or not I don't trust that I can and would say I definitely cant authenticate most autographs myself. 100% of one party's opinion is better then 100% of no ones opinion. I am not sure how everyone else feels but you two have been quite clear in your opinions so I guess then I should just stop collecting autographs sell my stuff and start collecting beanie babies or something.

That is not my point at all.
My point was simply that nobody can be expected to be 100% correct when authenticating autographs.
You declared the auto as fake, even though you really don't know if it is, simply based off another fallible persons opinion.
All of your peers tried to point this out to you. You became defensive and here we are.
This thread may not have gone in the direction you wanted it to and it may have veered from your original question but anyone with a physics degree should know that you have to assume that variables will evidently come up. Not many things in life go according to plan.

As in the Scots poem by Robert Burns,

The best-laid schemes o' mice an' men
Gang aft agley

paraphrased -The best laid plans of mice and men often go awry.

[RMoody]

Re: First fake autograph

I recently bought a signed poster from another collector (not on this site) and it came back as not authentic. I have already emailed the seller to let him know I would like a refund and to ship it back to him. This is the first time I have had an autograph come back as not authentic and I think that the seller should pay for the authentication fee since they sold the item as authentic. Can someone who has been in this situation tell me if that's normal practice or if I am going to have to fight with the guy to get my money?

For arguments sake, this is your original post.

Show me where this clearly says you don't even have the poster in question? Because the way I'm reading it, "I would like a refund and to ship it back to him" implies you have possession of the item.

You close with asking for suggestions from those in the situation. I'm pretty sure you got responses from people from a buyer and seller perspective.

Along the way, you have been pretty reluctant to take anybody's advice. You continually kept defending yourself rather than assume some responsibility for your purchase.

You still haven't made it clear what the seller guaranteed, only that they said it was authentic. I'll reiterate to you, since you discussed with the seller and had him send it on your behalf to authentication, the he should refund atleast part of your fees.

Bear in mind I'm not calling myself a better collector or telling you to take up beanie baby hunting but try to never do that again. From the outside, you bought an item way over your head regardless of how bad you wanted it. Historically, you put yourself in a position people get burned.

[64SHEA]

Re: First fake autograph

I truly get it now.

Maybe I missed that part, but you sure didn't make it emphatically clear.
Your now saying you purchased an item, had the SELLER mail that to a authentication company?

From my third post

I paid with paypal and it came from overseas so I have 180 days to file a dispute. The seller also mailed it directly to the authenticator and they just received it a couple of days ago.

You then paid the authenication fee and the item was then shipped to YOU with a rejection letter?

I don't even know how to respond to that to be quite honest.

How arrogant would a seller need to be to send a straight forgery to a authentication company. Apart from that, why would they then ship that known fake item to you, not return it to the seller or try to mediate the situation.

I never said they sent it back to me, they still have it and we are both waiting on the seller who said he would get back to me when he decides what he wants done with it. I also don't know how the sellers knowledge of its authenticity without proof directly affects its actually authenticity.

Like I said from the beginning the facts your just coming out with page 3 should have been made post #1.

No, that and any other of this information should not have been said in post #1, it has nothing to do with my question. Did you even read my original post? I had one simple question, has anyone had an item come back as not authentic and if so did you ask the seller to pay the fees, that's it that's all I asked. Your the one who posted ignoring my question basically asking me why the hell I would even think of sending anything to an authenticator.

I always wondered how someone gets dragged into a back and forth like this but I understand now.
Again I guess this is my fault for asking a question.

I'm done with this BS. Close the thread, delete it, print it out and hang it above you mantle for all I care. I truly enjoy coming on this site when I get home from work to see whats going on and have had nothing but good dealings with members in relation to game used items but I guess I have learned my lesson. Don't ask a question in the autograph thread unless you willing to blindly accepted the opinion of certain members about a topic that wasn't even part of your question.

In the words of Mick Foley
Have a nice day!

I cant be sucked back into this again my time is to valuable. Responded if you feel you must but I will never look at this thread again. If someone feels they have something of value to add they can pm me.

[RMoody]

Re: First fake autograph

I think I have said twice already the seller shipped it directly to the authenticator.

He said it had too many atypical traits and formation issues.

Yes all the signatures failed.

It seems this all really comes down to someones personal level of trust. You may be fine trusting your instinct, forum members, and even the seller but I'm not. You say my own opinion should matter most well in my opinion my best chance of getting as close to certain as possible was sending it to an authenticator.

Maybe I missed that part, but you sure didn't make it emphatically clear.

Your now saying you purchased an item, had the SELLER mail that to a authentication company? You then paid the authenication fee and the item was then shipped to YOU with a rejection letter?

I don't even know how to respond to that to be quite honest.

How arrogant would a seller need to be to send a straight forgery to a authentication company. Apart from that, why would they then ship that known fake item to you, not return it to the seller or try to mediate the situation.

Like I said from the beginning the facts your just coming out with page 3 should have been made post #1.

While I still don't trust a majority of authentication company's, you bought something very uniformed apperantly. If he mailed the item to the authentication for you, you should due back everything, including fees. I'm not sure I have ever heard of a situation like that before.

[64SHEA]

Re: First fake autograph

I didn't want to post this because once again it had nothing to do with my question but I contacted the seller and he responded before I even posted this thread. He said while he was surprised he wouldn't question the opinion of the authenticator. I also received the refund before he even replied.

I always wondered how someone gets dragged into a back and forth like this but I understand now.
Again I guess this is my fault for asking a question.

I'm done with this BS. Close the thread, delete it, print it out and hang it above you mantle for all I care. I truly enjoy coming on this site when I get home from work to see whats going on and have had nothing but good dealings with members in relation to game used items but I guess I have learned my lesson. Don't ask a question in the autograph thread unless you willing to blindly accepted the opinion of certain members about a topic that wasn't even part of your question.

In the words of Mick Foley
Have a nice day!

[64SHEA]

Re: First fake autograph

Might I ask as well---

If this a poster with autographs from lesser known astronauts, you have to ask yourself if it is profitable to sell their signatures over a more popular space walker.

I can fake a autographed ball of 12 players from the 1998 Marlins, but what would be the point. I can just as easily fake one of the 1997 Marlins Game 7 starting lineup and make alot more money.

Without looking it up can you name all 24 men who have been too the moon? Outside of Armstrong, Aldrin, and maybe Young almost all astronauts are unknown to the none enthusiast yet even the most unknow sell for at least $100.

[64SHEA]

Re: First fake autograph

You sent it to an authenticator in the space field?

Please, tell me his qualifications? I'd take other random peoples word with exemplars over his any day.

I should have been more clear, he is an authenticate of space related autographs.

[64SHEA]

Re: First fake autograph

I don't know where the confusion is, I asked a question, the first two people answered it that was that. I didn't even bring any of this up.
Now I am childish because I am basing my response off what you said?

For what it's worth, 3rd parties are just that. You either saw it signed or you didn't, it's that simple because that's the only way to know for sure. Anything else is pure speculation, and what matters most is YOURS because its in your collection.

I wouldn't say it's distain, it's track record and a long list of errors. They equally have zero accountability

Bear in mind , not every "authentication" company has to employ a person with a background in handwriting. Even when they do, such as Chris Morales , mistakes can still get made.

Then tell me what your meant by that? What I took from it is authentication company's make mistakes are unreliable and should be avoided. So there not trust worthy but I can rely on random people I meet on a forum.

I didn't make an educated guess. I saw an item I had been looking for, asked if it was authenticated he said no but guaranteed it would pass authentication.
In any case why do you keep bringing up my degree, how does that increase my ability to spot a fake autograph?

Where does doubt creep in? When I bought an autograph from someone I have never met over the Internet. Place yourself in the buyers situation here.
I think I have said twice already the seller shipped it directly to the authenticator.

He said it had too many atypical traits and formation issues.
I understand to get a refund you should need some proof but if there is ANY doubt the same sort of question should be asked of the seller. What exactly was shown to prove it was a genuine autograph?

Your bringing up a sensitive topic for a lot of us, because your essentially letting another persons opinion mean more than yours and the sellers word.

What are you doing, trying to insist your opinion is right and mine is wrong.
The sellers not my buddy from down the street he's a guy from the other side of the world. So I should trust him but not someone recommended to me by other space collectors?

Yes all the signatures failed.

It seems this all really comes down to someones personal level of trust. You may be fine trusting your instinct, forum members, and even the seller but I'm not. You say my own opinion should matter most well in my opinion my best chance of getting as close to certain as possible was sending it to an authenticator.

Also the statement at the end of my last post was a hyperbole.

[cfern023]

Re: First fake autograph

Might I ask as well---

If this a poster with autographs from lesser known astronauts, you have to ask yourself if it is profitable to sell their signatures over a more popular space walker.

I can fake a autographed ball of 12 players from the 1998 Marlins, but what would be the point. I can just as easily fake one of the 1997 Marlins Game 7 starting lineup and make alot more money.

[cfern023]

Re: First fake autograph

Like I said the poster is signed by astronauts and lesser known ones at that. It was not sent to PSA it was sent to a highly respected authenticator in the space field.

You sent it to an authenticator in the space field?

Please, tell me his qualifications? I'd take other random peoples word with exemplars over his any day.

[RMoody]

Re: First fake autograph

Alot of confusion seems to be rooted in a lot of what your saying.

Nobody here claiming they "authenticate" everything they own. Just like nobody is telling you to stop collecting. It's also pretty childish when your provided answers you clearly don't want to hear to just assume that's what people are saying.

Personally, I find this particular situation a microcosm of where the community is heading. Place yourself in the sellers situation here.

You bought an item the seller guaranteed authentic. You made an educated (highly educated considering your degree) opinion the piece was authentic and the seller was genuine. You received the exact item you purchased.

So as I originally asked, where does doubt creep in? How do you get to the point where your sending this item off to be "authenticated"?

Apart from that, what exactly was shown to you to prove it was not a genuine autograph?

Listen, I get asking for people help on items when your not sure. I did that myself on this very forum two weeks ago.

Your bringing up a sensitive topic for alot of us, because your essentially letting another persons opinion mean more than yours and the sellers word. Clearly based on the topic and your response, you now have zero doubt this item is fake. Thats quite a change of stance, in a short timeframe.

As I reiterated to you, if you had something tangible to start the doubt , its a different story. Seller kept selling similar items, had a stockpile of them, got caught with fakes, sold you a different item....tons of things.

You also said this was signed by multiple people, so did all signatures fail or just one?

In closing, the beanie babies market has dried up in the past few years. I would suggest you take a good look at this site if your serious in moving in that field,

http://www.barrysbeanies.com/generic32.html

I work with a woman who collects them and just a ruthless of a field.

[64SHEA]

Re: First fake autograph

Really?
I don't know what to say anymore.
As I have said over and over all It wanted to know is if it was the norm or not to ask the seller for the authentication fees, especially considering they said they guaranteed it would pass. I don't know what you mean by

One who is highly proficient at problem solving would assume that getting the same answer from everyone would mean something more than they are picking on me.

The first two people answered my question, if Mr Moody had never posted I would have said thanks for the advice that would have been that and this thread would have lived in obscurity never to be posted in again. It seems as though your and Mr Moody's point was that I shouldn't have even sent it to an authenticator in the first place. Physics degree or not I don't trust that I can and would say I definitely cant authenticate most autographs myself. 100% of one party's opinion is better then 100% of no ones opinion. I am not sure how everyone else feels but you two have been quite clear in your opinions so I guess then I should just stop collecting autographs sell my stuff and start collecting beanie babies or something.

[Roady]

Re: First fake autograph

Well, Having a physics degree one would assume you would be highly proficient at problem solving and have the ability to solve challenges by thinking creatively. A physics degree also gives you a grounding in advanced mathematics.

I guess I can't understand your reluctance to accept your peers suggestions.
One who is highly proficient at problem solving would assume that getting the same answer from everyone would mean something more than they are picking on me.
Your advanced mathematical skills should come in handy when 100% of the responses are more or less the same. Now the sample size may be small but when developing a hypothesis within the sample size it would point to you being unable to accept others opinions that differ from your own preconceived notions.
I also have a hard time understanding why you seem able to accept at 100% an opinion by a 3rd party when your physics degree should have taught you that to have a 100% success rate in any field would be an anomaly.

[64SHEA]

Re: First fake autograph

You have a degree in physics?

Yes, why?