GUU The Newest Authentication Service On The Block?

[aeneas01]

Re: GUU The Newest Authentication Service On The Block?

and 'round and 'round we go...

when you have a "discussion" with a lawyer and he gives you an "opinion" that influences your actions, is he not laboring? if you don't believe he is, then you may be surprised when he hands you a hefty bill for it.

depends - if i retained his services then, yes, i would consider it labor and expect a bill. but if i overheard him at an auction tell another collector not to pay any attention to the "all sales are final" notices, that they don't hold any legal water, then no. and i don't believe i would have much legal recourse if i ran with his advice and later found i couldn't get my money back from the auction house.

what many of the folks do on this Forum is no different than what dave bushing, john taube, lou lampson, nick coppola, and keith vari make a living at. would it surprise you to learn that you "authenticated" the namath helmet and that lampson is paid to do what you did for free?

i think there is a difference - the people you mentioned are recognized, right or wrong, as the best in the business and authenticate items for a living. they've been at it a long time, have developed a brand name that auction houses can exploit and, despite their well deserved criticism, have probably forgotten more about game-used equipment than many of us will ever know - i really believe this. my beef with lampson is not that he's a charlatan posing as an expert - as a matter of fact i think he could do a great job on an item if he took his time. my beef is with auction houses that demand huge lots be authenticated in a short period of time and then turn their back when they know damn well this results in sloppy authentication work. and i have a beef with authenticators that are party to this sham.

on the other hand i only evaluate items i'm personally interested in - when i want, at my own leisure. if i'm not particularly interested in an item i can pass on it. i have this luxury because i'm not a paid authenticator. but, most importantly, i evaluate items because i thoroughly enjoy what i learn along the way - it's a wonderful pastime. outing shoddy authentication work is just a bonus.

as such, i don't agree that "what many of the folks do on this Forum is no different than what dave bushing, john taube, lou lampson, nick coppola, and keith vari make a living at." - sure, they look at photos, we look at photos. but until one of us quits their day job and proves he can make a living at the authentication game, i'll continue to contend that there is a substantial difference.

analysts make a decent living in all fields. people on this forum trade their expertise freely because it's understood that we all benefit from helping each other. you describe friendly discussions and can't see where the labor is. it's there, we're just not charging for it. many people come on, for example, and ask others to find them a photomatch. some do it and there's no charge. do you know what meigray charges to find a custom photomatch? hint: it isn't cheap. nor should it be because they're investing their time and effort. there's a ton of "free work" going on everyday on this forum.

yes, analysts make a decent living in all fields - and they hang their shingles, announce their open for business and hope for the best. but i don't think any forum members mistook guu as an internet storefront where they could hawk their expertise. nor do i think any forum members are under the impression that what they share, offer or discuss (regardless of the level of expertise) is protected or considered proprietary. yet we continue to share. you continue to share. i continue to share.

why? why would someone take the time to help another member with a photomatch? because what goes around comes around? because we all benefit from helping each other? perhaps. but, frankly, i think the real reason is far less altruistic - i think we do these things for ourselves. because this is what we enjoy.

however, when a entity wants to capitalize on these "friendly discussions" for it's own for-profit ventures, then it's a different story.

guu has it's own team of authenticators. and when deemed necessary they bring in a niche expert, as was the case with scoggin and the elway jersey. on top of this guu also offers a format which allows bidders to ask questions and discuss items before bidding. this equates to "capitalizing" on member input for guu's own profit? pretty tough paint job.

how would you feel if i took all of the information in your posts, made it into a book on football helmets, charged $29.99 a copy and gave none of the proceeds to you? would you be cool with that?

how would i feel? to start, flattered. if it sold, shocked. $30 clams for such a sparse publication? wow. but i don't think i have to worry about that. nor do i think i have to worry about anyone getting rich off of the dos centavos i contribute to the forum. but i do think the analogy is a stretch - as far as i know, guu has done nothing that i haven't consented to as far as my posts are concerned...

doesn't much matter what your motivation was. you spent time, you spent your expertise and you conducted analytical work. uncompensated labor. why? because you labored and you weren't compensated, regardless of your motivation.

again i disagree - imo motive does indeed need to be considered. my motive for posting here is pleasure, personal entertainment coupled with the certainty that i will learn something new while researching for answers to questions. as a matter of fact it's labor that i'm avoiding, putting on the back burner, whenever i kick back in my chair and log-on to the forum. but if one chooses to use the strictest definition of labor, i suppose most everything in life could be considered work, free labor, uncompensated toil. even the time spent putting together your son's first bike.

[kingjammy24]

Re: GUU The Newest Authentication Service On The Block?

hey robert,

suffice it to say that i disagree with almost all of your points so strongly that we've reached a complete impasse
not a minute too soon probably as i'm sure this exchange has bored most of the other members to tears.

i did want to add a few somewhat unrelated points:

- "the pros" - the problem with the pros (and i don't believe at all that most of them have forgotten more than most of us will ever know. for jerseys, i'll easily take howard wolf and lon lewis on their worst day over dave bushing or coppola on their best day. on bats, i'd take specht and caravello over bushing. i'll take the secretary in my office over lampson on any item. she may not know a gamer from a retail jersey but, unlike lampson, at least she'll admit her ignorance)..anyway the problem with the pros, in addition to the one you mentioned, is that they frequently venture far outside of their areas of expertise. we all have our niches. their niche seems to be everything under the sun. having a single, narrow niche isn't as profitable as pretending you're an expert on every single item out there. you once asked for my opinion on a football jersey. my response to you was that there are other members on here far more qualified for vintage football jerseys and it wasn't my place to comment. try getting most of the pros to ever admit something isn't in their realm of expertise. i once saw lampson "authenticate" a pair of madonna's undies. if there's a dollar involved, they'll authenticate it.

- lampson - the problem with lampson isn't that auction houses ply him with too much and give him too little time. it's, as you said, that he's a "party to this sham". as i told nerat, noone forces lampson to agree to anything. lampson may have a ton of expertise in his massive brain but it's completely useless because, as it seems to me, he's guided primarily by a sense of greed and an overwhelming lack of common sense and ethics. i'm sure the drunk down the block may be a musicial genius but if he's constantly drunk then what good is his talent? i've constantly heard about how much lampson supposedly knows, yet all i've ever seen from him are the stupidest, sloppiest mistakes ever made. what good is knowledge if it's never used? lampson's attitude has made him completely worthless.

- making a living at something doesn't require that you be good at it. only that you convince others that you're good at it. marketing can convince people of anything and as denny esken once said, many of the "pros" spend more time marketing themselves as "experts" than doing research. i've never once even pondered making a living at it because i'm completely certain there's far less money in it than what i'm currently making. the only way to turn a decent profit at it is to rack up the auction house contracts and then rubberstamp everything in as little time as possible and employ no assistance. we don't know anyone who does that though, right? unfortunately, i lack the moral turpitude that seems necessary to truly turn big profits at the authenticating game.

- the most important point i wanted to add was that when i referred to an entity capitalizing on Forum conversations, i wasn't referring to GUU at all. i was referring to auction houses.

anyway, i enjoyed the discussion. i'll put up another thread soon with your name on it that i'm sure everyone will enjoy far more than this one.

rudy.

[aeneas01]

Re: GUU The Newest Authentication Service On The Block?

suffice it to say that i disagree with almost all of your points so strongly that we've reached a complete impasse

nothing wrong with that!

not a minute too soon probably as i'm sure this exchange has bored most of the other members to tears.

we do agree on something!

i'm sure the drunk down the block may be a musicial genius but if he's constantly drunk then what good is his talent?

unless the drunk was passed out, i can guarantee that you could get more music out of him than anything i could bring to the table. and therein lies the rub - imo i believe that many auction houses take the position that these "pros", even on their worst days and even when rifling through lots, can nail items a heck of a lot better and consistently than john q. public. and apparently that's good enough as far as they're concerned.

but "the times, they are a-changin'". imho "authenticators" are a dying breed and so is the "thumbs up" coa model. before too long we will most likely see the "pros" replaced by dedicated research services that do nothing more than dissect photos, film footage and license information from known resources and collections. a few more jordan and namath threads, coupled with the increasing traffic to guu, will probably bring this around sooner than later.

the only way to turn a decent profit at it is to rack up the auction house contracts and then rubberstamp everything in as little time as possible and employ no assistance.

today, no doubt.

the most important point i wanted to add was that when i referred to an entity capitalizing on Forum conversations, i wasn't referring to GUU at all. i was referring to auction houses.

then i misunderstood, my apologies.

anyway, i enjoyed the discussion.

i always enjoy exchanges with you - more importantly, i always enjoy and appreciate your tremendous contributions to the forum. your labor, if you will.