I would NOT buy a GW jersey with a MEARS A5 grade

[beantown]

Re: I would NOT buy a GW jersey with a MEARS A5 grade

Rudy,

Hello...yes, it's an acceptable level of analysis for along with the knowledge I possess concerning any prospective item I might be interested in. For example...if MEARS offered a grade A5 on an item and I KNOW that it has all the specifications of a gamer, then yes, I am comfortable with it. Moreover, the items I collect will never fall into retail jersey category or promotional category. Again, it is something that I am comfortable with. Wouldn't you rather have that grading system rather than some other autehnticators who either say it's worn or it isn't worn?

Remember..my comments re: MEARS were solely pertaining to their A5 grade and how it doesn't say much. I made no comments whatsoever about Troy and Dave's professional conduct or the strides MEARS has made or anything else. Just the A5 issue. That's it. Let's keep with the A5 topic.

Beantown let me ask you this:
You're honestly saying that an authenticator examining a jersey and issuing a final statement of "this jersey could either be a game jersey, extra, retail jersey or a promo" is an acceptable level of analysis for you as a collector?


Rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Re: I would NOT buy a GW jersey with a MEARS A5 grade

There seems to be some miscommunication in my posts. I'll try to be more clear.

Joel:
"When a letter states that a jersey shows all the characteristics of a game used jersey, what more can they say"

Joel, as I understand it from the definition from MEARS' website, an A5 does not simply say it shows the characteristics of just a game jersey. You've oversimplified the definition. It says it shows the characteristics of FOUR different types of jerseys, not just one. For some reason, you've chosen one of them and ignored the other three.
Again: "A5 designation may still be assigned if the jersey possesses all the qualities and physical characteristics of a Major League jersey that was
[ONE] manufactured for player use or
[TWO] as an extra for a team or player or,
[THREE] one that may have been made available for retail sale
[FOUR] or promotion."

Joel thats 4 different types of jerseys that an A5 refers to, not just "a game jersey". Right there, in black and white, without anything "out of context", MEARS states that an A5 can include retail jerseys. In your world, are retail jerseys the same thing as game jerseys?

"They are stating generally that a post 1987 jersey that doesn't have any other paperwork appears to be a game used jersey based on the item itself and the history behind it."

Well, then one of us has no clue what an A5 is because that's not how I interpret it. I believe MEARS is stating that an A5, when applied to post 87 jerseys with no paperwork, can be a game jersey or retail jersey and they have no way of knowing the difference. You keep referring to A5's only as "game jerseys" when right there in black and white MEARS states it includes retail jerseys. Retail, Joel, retail. Can't ignore it. It includes the $30 Ravens Knit or whatever else that you can pick up at Sears. These jerseys, under MEARS definition, would receive an A5.

"What would you like them to do to do this better?"

First off, take out the retail category completely. If I send in a retail jersey to MEARS, why is it even being "authenticated" and graded? It should be declared as a retail jersey. Why are they including retail in the A5 category? Is anyone out there seriously interested in having retail jerseys authenticated? Remove the retail category from the A5, learn how to distinguish retail from pro, don't bother grading retail jerseys, and I'm a happy camper. Oh and fix a certain aspect of the worksheet; specifically, the MEARS worksheet lists a comprehensive amount of categories. Each category is meant to be filled in or checked off. However, in many of the categories there's no indication if the information entered matches the legit specs. For example, simply saying there's a nameplate doesn't help much. Telling me there's a nameplate and there is not supposed to be a nameplate is very helpful. Telling me the back numbers are 7" high is pointless. Telling me they're 7" high and they're supposed to be 7.5" high is immensely helpful. I don't just want a listed description of what the jersey looks like. I can see for myself what it looks like. What I need to know is if it all matches up to all of the legit specs. Sort of reminds me of a Lou Lampson LOA - "Blue jersey, number on back, patch on sleeve, size 48" without any indication whatsoever if these are correct or incorrect specs. Where's the authenticating? You don't need to be an authenticator to just list the specs of what the current jersey looks like.

Chris:
"if MEARS offered a grade A5 on an item and I KNOW that it has all the specifications of a gamer"

Chris, something seems to have been lost in my question to you. Let me try again: When MEARS gives you an A5, they are telling you "We don't know if this jersey is pro or retail". Is this acceptable to you? I keep asking because I find it hard to believe that anyone would find that acceptable because it's essentially a non-answer. It's a whole paragraph devoted to basically saying "It could be anything, we're not sure". You don't need an authenticator to tell you that. You can tell yourself that and that's the entire reason you're sending it to an authenticator.

"Wouldn't you rather have that grading system rather than some other autehnticators who either say it's worn or it isn't worn?"

Personally, no I wouldn't. For me, it seems like a mass-production, assembly line system designed to be all-encompassing and vague enough to protect the authenticator while at the same time churning out as many authentications in as short a time as possible. Going through the line and stamping A5 on all post 1987 jerseys speeds the process up. Plus, they can't be wrong because the A5 definition includes every possible type of jersey.
You know what I'd like? I'd like an authenticator to write up a detailed analysis and verdict with a full explanation of how and why he came to that conclusion. I like the MEARS worksheets, but I don't think they're enough. I'd like to read a full report educating me about my jersey with things like "This jersey shows the XXX patch which was used by the A's from 1988-1992. In 1992, the patch was placed on the right sleeve. The patch on this jersey is on the left sleeve, thereby dating it to 1988-1991". Something that clearly shows their expertise and knowledge and makes me feel confident that they really did some serious due diligence to earn the fee.
If they get a retail jersey, write up a report telling me why my jersey is a retail jersey and not a pro jersey; "This jersey bears the wash code, lighter buttons, unique side stitching of the manufacturer's tag, and lack of a flag tag that was indicative of retail jerseys during the 1987-1994 timeframe. Furthermore, it lacks the collar lining and button lining that was found on pro jerseys from this team during this timeframe". That's what I want.
You can't get through hundreds of items very quickly with that kind of report though. If I was a "professional", that's what I'd issue. Of course, I it would take me hours to get through a single jersey and I wouldn't make much money. MEARS charges $50 to authenticate a common player jersey from post-79. It would be lunacy for me to work 1 or 2 hours for $50. If the entire $50 were going to me, I'd probably spend about 15 minutes on a jersey and I wouldn't feel comfortable rendering an opinion after 15 min. I'm going go ahead and wager that because MEARS is a professional operation they've got guidelines on how much time an authenticator should spend on a jersey. Financially speaking, you just can't have an authenticator spending 1 hr on a jersey that you're making $50 from. The jersey may actually necessitate 1 hr but economically it's simply not possible. Out of the $50 MEARS collects, how much goes to the specific authenticator for that jersey? $25? $20? Who's going to work for $20/hr? To stay afloat financially and make enough money, you need to get through a certain number of items in a certain timeframe. Spend too long on a jersey and you start losing money.

I guess there's always a tradeoff between cost and quality. I suppose that's why I'd rather leave it up to myself and spend hours on my jersey purchases and let professional authenticators spend the 15 minutes they're dictated.

Rudy.

[trsent]

Re: I would NOT buy a GW jersey with a MEARS A5 grade

Rudy, I believe what you have missed is A5 can mean any of those characteristics, but at the same time the letter will specify which one it refers to.

[kingjammy24]

Re: I would NOT buy a GW jersey with a MEARS A5 grade

Joel:

Really? The letter will state which one of them it belongs to?
Well if that's truly the case, I take back everything I said about the A5.
If it's not the case, then what I said stands.

Anyone have an actual A5 letter they can post?

I'd still like to see the worksheet fixed so that it's apparent if the information entered matches legit specs.

Incidentally, the earlier comment that I was "trying to make MEARS look bad" is nonsense. I have no possible motive for doing so. I'm not a competitor nor do I have any sort of beef against anyone at MEARS. I do think they've made some sloppy errors but other than that I really have no feelings about them either way. To be honest, I think with a few tweaks they could become the most prevalent mass-authenticating company out there which seems like an extremely lucrative position to be in. Who else could be a major competitor? Maybe Lampson or GFC.

Rudy.

[bigtime59]

Re: I would NOT buy a GW jersey with a MEARS A5 grade

http://pics1.edeal.com/images/p2/wl/vintageauth/docs/mondesi01gujersM.pdf

Link above is to A5 graded, and I believe, obviously NOT game issued or worn Raul Mondesi jersey in the current Vintage auction. I just got done railing about this piece in the current auction items area.
I'm very unhappy with this piece, to say the least.
Mark Sutton
bigtime59

[kingjammy24]

Re: I would NOT buy a GW jersey with a MEARS A5 grade

Joel..and anyone else..

Mark just posted an A5 letter. Can someone please point out to me where in the letter MEARS states that the jersey is a game jersey or a retail jersey as per my original criticism?


thanks,

Rudy.

[Eric]

Re: I would NOT buy a GW jersey with a MEARS A5 grade

Rudy-

I sent a private message to you. Can you please email me?
Thanks
Eric

[clinton2828]

Re: I would NOT buy a GW jersey with a MEARS A5 grade

A5 letters are "soft" and are not strong statements..they should do more detailed worksheets with more detail....i woudl like to talk to you joel in person cause i take real issue with your stance on this...Pm me your number i woudl like to talk

[trsent]

Re: I would NOT buy a GW jersey with a MEARS A5 grade

Clinton, just curious, what did you want to talk about that you wouldn't post on the forum? I have no problem talking to you, my email address is below, email me and I'll get you my phone number. Remember, I sleep days so I may not always answer, so leave a message if you miss me.

I emailed MEARS because I could have sworn the sub-category was listed on A5 letter, and I will respond on the forum once I receive a reply from them.

[suave1477]

Re: I would NOT buy a GW jersey with a MEARS A5 grade

I have a question MEARS said the highest they will go is an A5 Grade on a post 87 jersey, can someone here tell me why 87 is a significant year. Does MEARS list the reason for year on there website?

[trsent]

Re: I would NOT buy a GW jersey with a MEARS A5 grade

I have a question MEARS said the highest they will go is an A5 Grade on a post 87 jersey, can someone here tell me why 87 is a significant year. Does MEARS list the reason for year on there website?

Does MEARS state they will only go to an A5 on a post-1987 jersey?

I do not believe so, I believe they will only go up to an A5 on a jersey that doesn't have a team letter or something of that nature.

You folks are looking to bash MEARS because you have nothing better to do. They authenticate a jersey to the best they can. You may not like the system, but for the average consumer they are a great service.

Why don't those of you who question their service question them directly. You can reach them through their website: www.mearsonline.com

Seriously, who has emailed MEARS directly about their service before coming on this forum to bash them?

[suave1477]

Re: I would NOT buy a GW jersey with a MEARS A5 grade

Joel you are way out of line!!! I didnt bash mears or anyone else i just asked a simple question cuz 87 was brought up. Also for your information Joel YES THEY DO MENTION 1987!!!

I am a bit offended Joel on that one and i dont offend easily, i didnt bash anyone i just asked a question cuz i saw that year posted!!!

[kingjammy24]

Re: I would NOT buy a GW jersey with a MEARS A5 grade

Suave:

re: the '1987' issue:
As MEARS explains it: "For post 1987 jerseys it reflects both a grade and an issue within the hobby that deserves both explanation and qualification as it relates to star or period star player uniforms...he begins to explain the commercialization of game used product within the hobby. Although not limited to just uniforms, as this is also roughly the same period of time that the Anaconda-Kaye Sports Inc. Pro-Model bats surfaced within the hobby (1986-1989), it does provide a similar set of circumstances requiring explanation...Other examples of products that highlight the need within the hobby for an A5 designation are the Champion basketball jerseys of star players for the mid to late 1990s." (If you're still confused after reading that, I doubt you're alone.)

In short, the significance of 1987 is that this was roughly around the time that authentic, game jerseys began to become available to the public via retail channels. During the early 80's, it was very difficult for example to walk into your local sporting goods shop and pick up an authentic, "pro" game jersey. They weren't abundantly available for the casual fan. In 1987, Rawlings acquired the MLB contract for jerseys and they also began making authentic, pro game jerseys available to the public via retail channels. As such, it became substantially easier for anyone to acquire authentic, pro game jerseys which were almost identical to real game jerseys. Eventually, the supply of authentic game jerseys from additional manufacturers such as Russell and Majestic has increased to the point where they're easily found in most local sporting goods shops. So what's the profundity of all this?
Well what I believe MEARS is trying to say is that because post-1987 authentic, pro game jerseys became readily available to the masses, the odds of a fake gamer increased dramatically. They bring up Anaconda-Kaye bats and mid-late 90's Champion NBA jerseys as other examples of retail items that were extremely close to the real thing. If this is indeed what MEARS is trying to say, then I completely agree; the post-87 abundant supply of authentic, pro game jerseys into retail stores most certainly increased the supply of fakes. After all, once these jerseys made it into your local sporting goods shop, anyone could walk in, buy in, cut the neck tag out, sew on a year/set tag, a flag tag, and presto, you have a gamer.

Is this post-1987 influx of authentic jerseys into retail stores so overwhelming and complex that MEARS would rather not even take the chance on them? They basically say unless you have a letter from the player or team, they won't say anything about the jersey beyond "its a game jersey or a retail or a promo or a spare", which of course is essentially saying nothing. Of course it's one of those! What else could it be?! As an authenticator you're paid to tell me which one of them it is, not give me a comprehensive list of every single possibility and then leave it up to me to figure it out. Have they so little faith in their ability to discern a fake or a retail from a pro that they completely refuse to even attempt it? Why won't MEARS look at a post-1987 retail jersey and explicitly say it's a retail jersey?

If you refuse to say whether a jersey is a gamer or not solely based on the fact that authentic jerseys are available in retail stores then that's poor.

Joel:

MEARS will go higher than an A5 on a post-87 jersey only if you have team/player documentation or verifiable provenance. If you don't, then the highest you can get is an A5, which as we've seen is code for "Could be anything". What's left to email them about when they've posted the definition of an A5 in detail on their Website? The A5 letter doesn't say if it's a game jersey or a retail and the A5 designation includes both. Bashing MEARS because I've "nothing better to do"? Come on Joel. If any authenticator issued this entire A5 concept, my criticism would stand. This is nothing personal against MEARS. In fact, I commend MEARS for their "buy-back" policy. Great stuff. Raises the bar for others. (Then again, if you say a jersey is either a gamer or a retail or a promo then you can't really be wrong and thus you'll never be required to buy it back huh?)
You say MEARS "authenticates" the best that it can, but if you don't render any sort of specific final opinion on a jersey, has it really been "authenticated"?

Rudy.

[trsent]

Re: I would NOT buy a GW jersey with a MEARS A5 grade

Jason, you are offended? I was commenting that this thread is just to pick on MEARS. Sorry if you think I was picking on you personally.

Rudy, when are we going into business to compete with MEARS? I've asked you for a few years now, let's do it already. Where do you live, Missouri? Come to Las Vegas, we never close and the casinos don't shut down when there is a hard rainfall.

Ok, to set the record straight, once again, I do not work for MEARS, AMI, Grey Flannel, Mastro Auctions or Upper Deck Authenticated.

Does anyone remember the best newspaper writer in the history of newspapers, Mike Royko?

http://cgi.ebay.com/One-More-Time-by-Lois-Wille-Mike-Royko-2000_W0QQitemZ7012238474QQcategoryZ2228QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

If you don't know who he was, buy this book, it is a collection of some of his greatest articles.

[Oil Can Dan]

Re: I would NOT buy a GW jersey with a MEARS A5 grade

I emailed MEARS because I could have sworn the sub-category was listed on A5 letter, and I will respond on the forum once I receive a reply from them.

Apologies for bumping a thread from March, but I'm considering sending a couple of post-1987 jerseys off to MEARS and I'm curious to know more about this A5 grade. trsent, I know it's been a long time but did you ever hear back from MEARS on whether or not they make a subcategory distinction on their COA's?