Game Used Favre Story in SCD

[lund6771]

Re: Game Used Favre Story in SCD

something that strikes odd to me now, is why are there LOA's on jerseys from the early to mid 90's?

when I've seen the 94 Throwback, a 1993 Jersey, etc..., it led me to believe that these might be coming from Favre's own collection since the letter is being written around 10 some years later...and there is no way that his stuff would have been found in some corner of the equipment room 10 years later

I remember in the mid 90's Gray Flannel bought a ton of Packers stuff right from the team...cleaned them out

but now this smells like GREED....obviously these items wern't in Brett's collection...anyone know what Thomason does for a living?...other than being Brett's buddy?....if this guy is making 30K a year, divorced, and struggleing to make his next rent/mortgage payment, then the writing would be on the wall to me

[kingjammy24]

Re: Game Used Favre Story in SCD

dave grob posted about this issue over on the mears website:

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http://www.mearsonline.com/news/newsDetail.asp?id=561

Problematic Brett Favre Jerseys by Dave Grob

Chris Nerat recently authored a piece for Sports Collectors Digest (SCD) that I found to be both hard hitting and well researched, in my opinion quite a departure from what I have been accustomed to seeing in SCD. The topic was on problematic Brett Favre jerseys on the market. The story has certainly garnered a lot of attention both inside and outside the hobby. I wish I could report that we were surprised at all of this, but sad to say I am not. In our Bat and Jersey Census, available to MEARS Members, we have over a half dozen examples of problematic Favre jerseys that were evaluated between May of 2006 and March of 2008, with the majority having been evaluated in 2006 and 2007.

Of those found to be problematic, roughly 43% display an autograph with a “game used” inscription. I point this for a number of reasons. First to shed light on a problem that we feel has existed in the hobby for some time and hopefully has been noticed by MEARS Members. Secondly to remind folks that simply having a player sign a jersey as “game used” or “game worn” is not an automatic qualifier as provenance or points on our grading scale.

In order to help others see what we have seen with respect to problematic Favre jerseys over the years, now that is seems to have any number of peoples attention, these are the jerseys I have referred to. I have provided the Certification or hologram number since we sometimes see MEARS evaluated products that, while the hologram is present, the worksheet or final Letter of Opinion has “become lost” for some reason.

Once again, hats off to Chris Nerat as well as MEARS contributor Guy Hankel for a job well done.

Problematic Favre Jerseys

1993 Home Jersey

Cert # 306330: MEARS is unable to grade this jersey due to the following inconsistencies: 1) Lack of wear; 2) game photos and footage show Favre wearing jerseys with NOB sized nameplates, not shoulder-to-shoulder nameplates as this jersey has.

1993 Road Jersey

Cert #100012: Numbers were applied via applique by the Packers in 1993, not single tackle twill as on this jersey. Manufacturer tag is not present on left front tail. Year tag (box) also missing from left front tail. Swatch tag in neck font not consistent with exemplars. Evidence of removal of retail size tag in neck.

NOTE: Autographed “93 Game Used”

1995 Home Jersey

Cert #100011: Incorrect font on back number. Incorrect yoke sheen. Missing manufacturer tag on front tail. Missing "Ripon Athletic" flag tag on inside seam. Swatch tag in neck font not consistent with exemplars. Evidence of removal of retail size tag in neck.

NOTE: Autographed “1995 MVP Game Used”

1996 Home Jersey

Cert #100009: Size does not match tagged size. Missing manufacturer tag on tail. Missing "Ripon Athletic" flag tag on inside seam. Swatch tag in neck font not consistent with exemplars. Evidence of removal of retail size tag in neck.

1996 Home Jersey

Cert #100010: Size does not match tagged size. Missing size flag tag on manufacturer tag. Missing "Ripon Athletic" flag tag on inside seam. Swatch tag in neck font not consistent with exemplars. Evidence of removal of retail size tag in neck.

NOTE: Autographed “96 Game Used”

1996 Road Jersey

Cert #309340: This jersey was a retail version that has had the retail tag removed from the neck. The outline of the removed tag is still visible upon inspection on a light table. The '96' box year tag found on the tail of this jersey should be in the collar. A size flag tag should be present on the right side of the Starter manufacturer's tag on the tail. The font used for the letter 'R' in Favre has the incorrect style of font for 1996 Packers jerseys.

2000 Home Jersey

Cert #305694: MEARS is unable to authenticate this jersey due to the following inconsistencies: 1) simulated, inconsistent wear -- satin fabric exhibits wear, mesh fabric does not; 2) sleeve cut not consistent with exemplars.

Dave Grob

For questions or comments on this article, please feel to drop me a line at DaveGrob1@aol.com
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"Secondly to remind folks that simply having a player sign a jersey as “game used” or “game worn” is not an automatic qualifier as provenance or points on our grading scale."

from what i've seen, if a post-87 jersey was an A5 and it had a "game worn/used" inscription from the athlete, it automatically got bumped up to an A10 because of the "provenance". that said, i also remember d. grob once that saying perhaps mears should start being more discerning or subjective with the specific athlete who wrote the "game used" inscription as some athletes will blindly write it on anything placed in front of them while others are more discerning.

rudy.

[gridman80]

Re: Game Used Favre Story in SCD

[quote=RKGIBSON;107002]

Roger: Could the "B" be a sloppy "R"? It would make more sense, since your jersey was worn in games against Chicago, the Jaguars and the Rams.


Guy,
It is possible. I always thought it was the one worn in the Vikings game also. The 2 games where Favre wore white where my jersey was not worn was, vs the Raiders 8/31/01 and vs the Giants 1/6/02. The tail did not have the same hem on the tail. Mine is cut about 2" longer and the side split shows, photo attached. Also are photos of the autograph and hologram.

I would like to know how the jerseys got out of the Packers facility.

Roger

I bought two Favre jerseys from Rick about 8 years ago a green that I subsequently photomatched to an away game against the Bucs and a 1994 white Throwback that turned out to be a highly questionable piece....I did speak to Chris off the record about it....Today in our hobby, no matter who the source -a contemporary star piece must be photomatched...Live and learn for me... Roger, I sent you an email reply to our Jets discussion partner....thanks

[RKGIBSON]

Re: Game Used Favre Story in SCD

[quote=gwh11;106854]Roger: Could the "B" be a sloppy "R"? It would make more sense, since your jersey was worn in games against Chicago, the Jaguars and the Rams.


Guy,
It is possible. I always thought it was the one worn in the Vikings game also. The 2 games where Favre wore white where my jersey was not worn was, vs the Raiders 8/31/01 and vs the Giants 1/6/02. The tail did not have the same hem on the tail. Mine is cut about 2" longer and the side split shows, photo attached. Also are photos of the autograph and hologram.

I would like to know how the jerseys got out of the Packers facility.

Roger

[allstarsplus]

Re: Game Used Favre Story in SCD

here are my opinions:

1) these aren't mistakes because the shirts themselves have been visibly doctored. red batty and brett favre could order as many perfectly-to-spec, game-issued shirts as they liked straight from the manufacturer. neither would have any need to spend the time and effort in doctoring shirts. they both have unlimited access to as much of the real stuff as they want.

2) as for the chain, the article quoted bus cook, favre's agent, saying that thomason handled all of favre's memorabilia.

3) favre can't sign the jersey before he gives it to thomason because it needs to be washed. rudy.

I think you are right on Point #1 as that makes good sense that perfect dupes (if they couldn't be photomatched) would have the excuse that an honest mistake was made that they just got the wrong game

Good point on #2

On point #3, are all the jerseys washed at some point after these games?

[aeneas01]

Re: Game Used Favre Story in SCD

OR are we possibly talking about thomason sending blank letters that have already been signed by favre en masse? is favre just signing blank letterhead here?

seems likely, as unsettling as that may sound. and the photos of favre holding the jerseys without holograms seems to support radtke having a hologram inventory....

...

[kingjammy24]

Re: Game Used Favre Story in SCD

at this point thomason would then arrange to have the jerseys signed by favre, snap some photos and then forward the jerseys and photos to radtke. radke, who has been furnished with an inventory of favre letterhead and holograms (from thomason), finishes the job by typing out the letter and applying the holograms....

at what point would favre then sign the typed out letters? thomason sends radtke blank letterhead, radtke types out all the letters, radtke then mails the letters back to thomason who has favre sign them, and thomason then mails them all back again to radtke? OR are we possibly talking about thomason sending blank letters that have already been signed by favre en masse? is favre just signing blank letterhead here?

rudy.

[aeneas01]

Re: Game Used Favre Story in SCD

i don't see why favre would even bother to get involved in the jersey logistics - i would think he would have simply put his buddy thomason in touch with batty (or the like) and have them work out the details. for example, after a game favre's shirt would be collected along with the rest game used jerseys, laundered and then put aside with a laundry note detailing the game info. perhaps several would accumulate before they were either shipped to thomason or he swung by to pick them up (i believe he is a local).

at this point thomason would then arrange to have the jerseys signed by favre, snap some photos and then forward the jerseys and photos to radtke. radke, who has been furnished with an inventory of favre letterhead and holograms (from thomason), finishes the job by typing out the letter and applying the holograms.

apparently thomason is involved in a website (may be the owner) called fan4ever (fan4ever.com) which sells signed favre memorabilia - these items include holograms. thomason is also involved in favre's official wesite (officialbrettfavre.com). more info can be found here: http://www.wisc.edu/licensing/licensee_list.pdf

i called fan4ever and was told that they believed thomason (or fan4ever) had furnished radtke with holograms and favre letterhead which he would apply to favre items obtained directly from thomason. it appears that authentic favre items are available only through fan4ever and radtke - and that the merchandise is controled by thomason through fan4ever. both radtke and fan4ever offer favre signed reebok jerseys with the same type of holograms.

so where does that leave us?

here's an old guu thread that discussed the investigation thomason mentioned in the nerat article:

https://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/archive/index.php/t-3971.html

here's an old cached link to a favre signed gamer offered at radtke's website:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.radtkesports.com/images/Game%2520Used/GUFAVRERAIDERS_medium.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.radtkesports.com/product_info.php/products_id/2433&h=190&w=250&sz=13&hl=en&start=21&usg=__KS2IImKFBzBvU-GWTKHKgysW15o=&tbnid=Zv_Cg9fIPTRPgM:&tbnh=84&tbnw=111&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dgame%2Bused%2Bfavre%2Bjersey%26start%3D20%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN

...

[lund6771]

Re: Game Used Favre Story in SCD

to an extent, it's not terribly relevant as the real meat is in the fact that radtke was receiving jerseys directly from favre/thomason that were already signed and the signed jerseys themselves (even without the corresponding hologram and letter) were already bad. the real question in this entire mess is who was putting bad jerseys in front of brett to sign?

rudy.

exactly

[mvandor]

Re: Game Used Favre Story in SCD

Certainly Thomason is the principal suspect outa the gate, but he may have had others working for him to handle some of the actual processing. Given the specificity of the info placed on most of these jerseys during Favre's signings, it's tough to believe a bunch were added in. It would be hard to explain to Brett how 32 regular season jerseys (assuming he does change at the half) suddenly become 60 requiring his signature. Therefore, it seems more likely to me some legit ones were replaced with bogus ones before the signings, with the purpose being either to keep a few for someone's personal collection at a very low cost, or to funnel them to auction houses for additional income.

I suspect the auction houses know their sources of Favre GU jerseys, and you have to wonder if they haven't put 2+2 together themselves and figured this out already, if they're aware of the article.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Game Used Favre Story in SCD

here's what dave o'brien said a year ago about favre's game-used shirts:

"The game used items are mailed to Rick after games...thus his signings and game used items are completely isolated from one another...so there is no chance that Bret has 200 pro-cuts sitting in front of him, and all of a sudden he decides that he's going to sign one as game used?...Without taking a picture and writing a letter?...Not Likely"

if dave is correct, imagine it's thomason then who mailed them to rick? rick must've received them already signed them. sort of bizarre for rick to make up the letters, after he received the jersey and then ship the letters back out to brett to sign and then get them back. why not just have thomason have favre sign the letters as he signs each jersey? loopy.

radtke sports has its own unique hologram. these favre shirts come with a unique favre hologram. you're saying radtke applied those favre holograms?

to an extent, it's not terribly relevant as the real meat is in the fact that radtke was receiving jerseys directly from favre/thomason that were already signed and the signed jerseys themselves (even without the corresponding hologram and letter) were already bad. the real question in this entire mess is who was putting bad jerseys in front of brett to sign?

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Game Used Favre Story in SCD

Rudy, from what I understand, the holograms are put on later by Radtke Sports...The letters are also made up by Radtke, and then Favre signs them...once the jersey, letter, and picture were all in Radtke's possession than the holograms were put on

I'm sure that Rick thought that everything was fake-proof until it left HIS hands, and no way before

was radtke the exclusive seller of these favre shirts? that is, did thomason distribute/sell them to others other than rick radtke?

somethings not jiving here. the letters state the game, opponent, date, and score. how could radtke know what to type on the letters before he got the jersey? favre gives the jersey to thomason. thomason gives the jersey to radtke. did thomason then tell radtke the specifics of when each jersey was worn? so favre signed the jerseys first, then gave them to thomason who in turn gave them to radtke. radtke then typed up the letter and the letter than went all the way back to favre, he signed it, and then went all the way back to radtke? jesus what a process. why is radtke producing letters "from the desk of brett favre"? radtke has posted on this forum. i think it'd be great if he could come on and discuss some of the specifics of how all of this worked.

rudy.

[lund6771]

Re: Game Used Favre Story in SCD

Rudy, from what I understand, the holograms are put on later by Radtke Sports...The letters are also made up by Radtke, and then Favre signs them...once the jersey, letter, and picture were all in Radtke's possession than the holograms were put on

I'm sure that Rick thought that everything was fake-proof until it left HIS hands, and no way before

[kingjammy24]

Re: Game Used Favre Story in SCD

I started thinking more about what the actual "chain" could be...

Who is putting the jerseys in front of Brett to sign?....if it is Thomason, how and where would he get them?...it wouldn't make any sence that he received the real ones from Brett, and than at a later date get back together with Brett to have him sign them plus bad ones?..why wouldn't Brett sign them BEFORE they got to Thomasons hands?...maybe Brett had a pile of them, would hook up with Thomason every couple of months, and sign them all in one sitting but made a few mistakes?....that theory is wrong as well, because as Rudy pointed out, why wouldn't they all be team issued instead being terribly fake?

If they were signed before they got to Thomason, than there is obviously someone else involved with making up these fakes...Thomason is a friend of Brett's and maybe he's just making some cash on the flip to Radtke?

Lots if if's, and's, or but's here.....but at least the chain is short and my guess is that it would n't take long to figure out who dun it

here are my opinions:

these aren't mistakes because the shirts themselves have been visibly doctored. red batty and brett favre could order as many perfectly-to-spec, game-issued shirts as they liked straight from the manufacturer. neither would have any need to spend the time and effort in doctoring shirts. they both have unlimited access to as much of the real stuff as they want.

as for the chain, the article quoted bus cook, favre's agent, saying that thomason handled all of favre's memorabilia. awhile back, thomason got together with the authorities and pursued some folks who were forging favre's signature. thomason, by most accounts, seems to be the exclusive gatekeeper to favre in terms of memorabilia. for various reasons, i'm sure he likes to keep it that way. from looking at various photos, it seems to me that these jerseys (both legit and fraudulent) seem to be have been washed so let's start from the beginning. favre enters the locker room and suits up for the game. the jersey he puts on is supplied by red batty and is a proper-spec, favre shirt with proper sizing, customizations, lettering, stitching, etc. favre then goes out and plays the game and returns to the locker room at the end. he's sweaty and exhausted and most likely wants to change and go home. i don't think favre is having the jersey washed immediately as he enters the locker room. it'd be a hassle to either wait around the entire time it's being washed and dried or to have to return to the stadium to retrieve it. i'd guess that the equipment staff need to pack everything up for the trip out and they pack favre's items along with the rest of the teams'. i'm guessing favre's post game routine in terms of his uniform and him getting out of the stadium is much the same as the rest of the teams. they've all got to catch the same bus and the same flight out and the equipment staff likely has their well-established procedures for packing everything up. after a game ends, i'm unsure if favre personally takes the jersey with him or if its just packed up with all of the teams other jerseys. if it's the former, then favre could then deliver the jersey to thomason who'd then have the jersey washed and signed, etc. if it's the latter, then favre would have to re-connect with the packers staff to get his jersey back after they'd washed it. i don't think the packers staff is pulling a fast one here and giving brett bad jerseys. as the scd article states, the packers have conducted their own investigation and come up empty and, unlike some others, i don't believe they have much of a bias. i don't think the packers would hesitate or care in firing a staff member found to be stealing favre's jerseys and giving him doctored ones.

favre can't sign the jersey before he gives it to thomason because it needs to be washed. plus i don't think favre wants the responsibility and hassle of personally having to record all of the details of each game with each specific jersey. i imagine that during the season favre's life is pretty hectic. if he's appointed thomason to take care of all of the logistics of his memorabilia, then he probably leaves all of the logistics and details to thomason including recording the games, opponents, scores, etc that each jersey was used in. after a game, i don't think favre is running back to the locker room and writing down the score and opponent and date on a little notepad and quickly washing his jersey so he can sign it asap, nor do i think he travels around with a package of holograms that he quickly applies after each game. my guess is that favre wants to make this entire process as practical and easy as possible for himself so he just leaves it all up to thomason. so either favre hands thomason a dirty jersey or a clean one. at some point in the future, thomason and favre meet to sign each jersey with thomason (or a representative) feeding favre the info to be signed on each shirt. i'm guessing it's thomason's group who types out the letters and applies the hologram. as you can see in the photo of brett holding up the jersey, he's signed it all and it still doesn't have a hologram.
my guess is favre delivers the jerseys to thomason and they meet at a later date and favre signs whatever he's told to on each shirt and signs each letter, one after the other, and completely trusts that the person laying the jerseys in front of him is being honest. in order for favre to sign the jerseys prior to all of this, it'd mean he'd have to have them washed first and he'd have to record the details of each game and personally coordinate which records went with each jersey. why bother with all of that when you've got your friend and memorabilia agent to take care of it all for you?

rudy.

[lund6771]

Re: Game Used Favre Story in SCD

in he picture that Brett is with my jersey, he is holding it up in a bar or restaurant

I started thinking more about what the actual "chain" could be...

Who is putting the jerseys in front of Brett to sign?....if it is Thomason, how and where would he get them?...it wouldn't make any sence that he received the real ones from Brett, and than at a later date get back together with Brett to have him sign them plus bad ones?..why wouldn't Brett sign them BEFORE they got to Thomasons hands?...maybe Brett had a pile of them, would hook up with Thomason every couple of months, and sign them all in one sitting but made a few mistakes?....that theory is wrong as well, because as Rudy pointed out, why wouldn't they all be team issued instead being terribly fake?

If they were signed before they got to Thomason, than there is obviously someone else involved with making up these fakes...Thomason is a friend of Brett's and maybe he's just making some cash on the flip to Radtke?

Lots if if's, and's, or but's here.....but at least the chain is short and my guess is that it would n't take long to figure out who dun it