Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

[Marichal27]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

I am done trying to reason with the board the fact of the matter is Mr.Lewis him self just stated on the board that Blue bordered jerseys were also sold to the public that means short of a 100 % photo match there is no way to state if any shirt is a gamer or a retail. The whole argument centered around borderless tags now that is not the factor that you can use to tell if a shirt is a gamer or a retail so what is? If a shirt could be custom ordered which still has yet to be proven then anyone could order a Yaz in Yaz's correct size and thus you have now way to tell the difference?

If I were you, I'd wait for the results you don't expect. Nobody can reason w/you. Lon and I didn't graduate from college just last year. Both of us, especially Lon, knew Dick Dobbins, who is the GOD of jersey Heaven. They spent tons of hours when Dick was selling Giants, Angels, Expos, and who knows what else jerseys. Lon knows his stuff. Believe me.

[suicide_squeeze]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

GREAT thread......read every word along the way.

Looking forward to Lon's info....

One thing, however.

Now, when I'm in my kitchen and kind of getting some hunger pangs......when I look at the apples and oranges in my fruit bowl to make up my mind..........I just end up all confused and get an upset stomach.


I don't hink I'll ever be able to eat a piece of fruit again until I hear from Lon.


On a more serious note......I would strongly suggest to any of the new readers to read these heated threads. The obvious usually becomes clear.

Rudy......I have to say, I have had my best laughs reading your posts. You're as electric in your writings as Manny is at the plate in a Dodger uniform......well, at least from 2008. Your common sense is your overwhelmingly best trait, among many others I might add, and there are collectors here who could learn a LOT from you just by following your leads. It is laughable to read some comments about you....like you don't "get it". That's like looking into a clear crystal glass full of red wine, and asking where the green grapes that made the wine came from.

Some people can't hit the ocean jumping out of a boat in deep sea.

I like to think I am pretty well equipped in the common sense arena too, but I appreciate your posts. At worst, you illicit thought that obviously is escaping some of the other members. That's what this is all about....a learning experience for all of us....with the main goal to help educate the group as a whole. That can only enhance everyone's collecting knowledge, and make it a better hobby for all involved.

And hopefully help them make better purchasing decisions.

Thank you Rudy.....sincerely.

Regards,

Steve

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Gentlemen the whole theory of the post was that lack of blue border equals retail, now Mr. Lewis state's that is not the case and the public could order blue bordered jerseys as well . If that is the case then there is now way to tell the difference between a retail and a gamer and if there is no way to tell then how can he make the statement he made that lack of a blue border equals a retail?

The fact of the matter is no one can say 100% one way or another.

[lon lewis]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Bosox, You can forward whatever you like to your contacts (I doubt that they even know who or what you are) at MEARS. Did you think that would scare me? Post them here but post them EXACTLY as they were written and don't change anything then everyone will see that YOU were the only one who used those terms. I checked them line by line or didn't you think I'd still have them? Of course if you post them here, people will find out what a total fraud you are in your statements. As far as Troy offering me money for the order sheets that's another of your b.s statements as I have NEVER had even 1 conversation with him on any subject period! So now either you're lying or he is (if he actually made that comment) Which is it? Now do I have to explain what NEVER means or do you actually comprehend what the word means? Regarding the McAuliffe records I was referencing the companies records not what some individual may have. Actually, I didn't think that anyone would have kept their individual invoices from 25+ years ago but apparently some did. If you had actually read my original post you would have noted as others have, that I said that jerseys ordered after the '70's as a general rule would have the borderless tag. Apparently you can't reason out that jerseys before that as a general rule did have the bordered tag. Or is that too difficult to grasp? As far as having to wait for the jerseys and invoices to show up I'm working on other peoples schedules not yours. You seem to think that everyone has to respond to you in the way you want and in the time you want well,too bad since this is my project on my time and money I'll do it my way. If that's not good enough for you, as I said get off of your lazy ass and get your own invoices and jerseys. Oh that's right those things (jerseys) don't exist according to you. Next, to really show how far out there you are, you want to see Fred Lynn jerseys that I FEEL are "retail"? I KNOW THEY'RE "RETAIL" THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE "RETAIL" THAT'S THE POINT OF THE WHOLE EXERCISE! Your last comment that the theory of the post was that the borderless tag equalled retail. The Original start of this thread was on the tag itself not what YOU turned it into with your absolute nonsense.

[soxbats]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Hey Bosox, I don't know you and I don't know Lon. I understand about being passionate and defending your jersey but please, give us all a break and let Lon put together his evidence and present it. Regardless of outcome it will be a huge asset to all jersey and non jersey collectors on the site. The constant picking and demanding simply undermines your arguments. You don't agree with Lon, you have asked Lon for an explanation and he agreed to do it.

The great part about this forum is that people like Lon, Aneas and others are willing to take the time and share their analysis. That doesn't mean that its always perfect, but it is highly educational and at least should be listened to.

My one other thought with all of this is that establishing hard and fast rules that cover each and every situation are difficult to near impossible in this hobby. Even the vaunted H&B records that you have identified are not perfect. Also, particularly in the 70s, people did not pay attention to uniform tagging like they do today so the experiences of people like Lon and others are invaluable.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Ron you have turned this into absolute nonsense. MEARS knows who I am, I have bought many items from them and sold many items to them over the years.

I forwarded the info to Mr. Grob for review as I am tired of the conversation and how your position keeps changing.

Now IN YOUR OWN WORDS, YOU SAY IF YOU DID NOT KNOW THE SOURCE OF THE JERSEY YOU COULD NOT TELL THE DIFFERENCE.

If you cant tell the difference how can you make any statements regarding the tagging of jerseys that you dont know the source of?

Troy did make that exact statement via an email. So I guess you are calling Troy and myself a liar.

Mr.Lewis I never once attacked you, never got personal, never questioned your expertise, I asked for proof, which you said did not exist now magically it does. However the proof does not prove anything as the tagging on a gamer could be the same as a retail?

The Lynn jersey is a 77 borderless, you keep bringing up the 80ties aftermarket as borderless jerseys this is a 77 shirt that started all of this and your statement was that borderless equals retail now you stay that is not the case and that retails or gamers could have either tag.

Take a stand one way or another thats what I am asking please don't kkeping changing your position.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Soxbats I am more than willing to let Lon post his findings what I am not willing to do is sit back silently and let Mr.Lewis make statements that directly contradict his previous statements.

Mr Lewis can not say in one breath that the lack of a blue border equals a retail shirt then in another say that a blue bordered shirt could also be a retail, as if that is the case there is no way to determin the difference between the two. That has been the whole argument that has been the issue at hand.

I am asking Mr. lewis to clarify his statements as we should not have to wait a month for him to clarify a statement he made to the board today.

It is either

A. Blue Border equals gamer for 75-79 as Mr.lewis say blue border were in full swing by 75

B. Blue border could be both retail and gamer 75-79

C Both borderless and blue border are gamers 75-79

D. Both Borderless and blue border are retails 75-79

At this point Mr. Lewis say that borderless tags are a 1980ties style, but in another statement says that the 77 borderless Lynn is a retail.

Just clarify the statement. Thats all

[aeneas01]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Robert, You're half right in your anaylisis. The blue bordered tags were available on the jerseys made for public order. I have asked for some of those to be included in the jerseys to be sent here for my little project. And yes, that does muddy the waters even further. I have some of the aftermarket jerseys here and let me tell you if I didn't know where these came from even I would have a pretty hard time with distinguishing between real and non. Where you are 1/2 wrong is the same place everyone seems to get off the tracks and that is that unlike today, there was NO "retail" operation involved here. Just like their major league counterparts, each jersey was custom made at the time of the order. No blanks, no racks of pre-made jerseys, nothing. You had to specify what you wanted at the time of the order. Then your jersey would be made up for you. Its as simple as that.

gotcha lon - then the following amended post would be more accurate?

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lon also stated the following...

1. "during the '70's and 80's anyone could obtain from McAuliffe/Stahl and Dean completely tagged jerseys of any of the teams that were produced..."

2. "after the '70's, those jerseys would as a general rule contain the borderless mfr tag..."

if this is the case wouldn't properly tagged jerseys WITH blue borders have been available to non-team sources as well during the mid '70s to late '70s given that's the type of tag mcauliffe / stahl and dean were producing at the time? and if this is indeed the case, doesn't that further muddy the water given that a custom order purchased by a non-team source, a fan or a sporting goods store for example, would closely (exactly?) match orders placed by teams?

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btw lon i don't know how this thread took off in some of the directions it did given your first post/reply on page one. seems that some either didn't read your post, didn't comprehend your post or simply decided to make up things as they went along...

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[aeneas01]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

anyway, for those interested in this thread, i've re-read some of lon's comments and it's occurred to me that they seem to have been grossly misinterpreted. lon never stated or implied that all borderless tags were retail shirts. contrary to how eric has grossly twisted it all, it's not a black and white issue of border vs no-border. i don't want to put words in lon's mouth but from what i can see lon simply stated that:

a) stall & dean sold mcauliffe shirts to the public

b) these shirts would be tagged similarly to their pro counterparts

c) in the 80s retail shirts contained borderless tags

from i gather then, it'd be entirely possible to have a solid, legit '77 gamer with a borderless tag. (lon never said if it didn't have a border it was necessarily a retail shirt) it'd also be possible to have a retail shirt from '77 with a borderless tag. so how would you tell the difference? size. wear/use. hopefully i haven't misinterpreted anything but that's what i've read. this whole thing devolved into a "border=good, borderless=bad" pile of garbage.

lon stated "The blue border tags actually made their first appearance in 1974, and were in full production in 1975." this would imply that blue bordered tags replaced their borderless counterparts and that by 1975 the changeover was all but complete. unless, of course, lon is saying that mcauliffe rolled out blue bordered tags in 1974 and intended to use these new tags along with their borderless tags - but i don't think that's what lon is saying - seems to me that lon is simply stating that the blue bordered tags replaced the borderless tags around that time.

if this is the case, then i think there would indeed be a problem with a 1977 team-purchased (authentic) jersey with a borderless tag assuming mcauliffe did introduce a complete changeover as lon suggests.

perhaps mcauliffe opted to use borderless tags for their custom non-team orders during that time in order to simply deplete their borderless tag inventory. perhaps mcauliffe realized that if they used their blue bordered tags for custom non-team jobs they would exhaust their supply and therefore used old stock borderless tags for custom non-team jobs. perhaps the blue bordered tags were used for custom non-team jobs if the buyer noticed the difference and made it a point to specifically ask for blue bordered tags. who knows.

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[suave1477]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

I Just Want To Say I Gave Up Reading This Thread After About The 5th Page!!! Lol Lol:d

but This Thread Hs To Be Setting A Record For One Of The Longest Threads On Guu Lol Lol:d

[lon lewis]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Robert, You're essentially correct. As I said previously, when I look at the jerseys that have been sent here so far, in most of the cases it would be hard for even me, if I didn't know the source to tell real from non. In this instance hard doesn't mean impossible it just means that the normal way of doing things won't work.

[aeneas01]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

even if you're not into jerseys i think this thread is very informative and a great read. further it's littered with gems that are sure to make you shoot your coffee through your nose...

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1986&2004Bosox

- Also you hit the nail on the head if MEARS has already authenticated borderless as gamers the standard has been set.

- Rudy if auction houses, MEARS, and Henderson's are not valid resources in your mind that what do you suggest we as collectors use to evaluate a jersey?

- It is laughable that Mr. Lewis will not provide the order records he states he has to MEARS to try and provide the collecting community with more research material. (one of my personal favorites!)

rudy

- the word "how" threw him. Q: how do i peel an apple? A: if you can't peel an apple then you shouldn't peel an apple. #@! brilliant.

- ultimately, i realize that having this discussion with a guy currently trying to sell a borderless fred lynn is like trying to explain how tasty a pulled pork sandwich is to a pig. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it"

- on that note, if mears, hypothetically speaking, comes to the eventual conclusion that borderless tags were for retail shirts, what are they going to do about all of the borderless jerseys they've already authenticated? announce a big buyback program? and on that note, how is mears only now investigating this issue after they've already authenticated many mcauliffe shirts? they don't know if mcauliffe made retail shirts and, if they did, how to tell them apart but they went ahead and declared themselves fit to authenticate mcauliffe shirts? isn't that the sort of basic info you learn before you start printing out the LOAs? how's it work at mears..authenticate the shirt first and then learn the difference between pro and retail?

- anyway, brush up on the statistical idea of representative samples. when a survey says "45% of americans prefer apples to oranges" they haven't actually interviewed every single known american to be able to make that claim.

- the odds are pretty slim of a forger having their own lathe, cords of ash, and fake LVS branding iron.

experts? you mean mears? the same firm that in the past week announced they're going to begin to investigate the notion of retail mcauliffes?

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[aeneas01]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Robert, You're essentially correct. As I said previously, when I look at the jerseys that have been sent here so far, in most of the cases it would be hard for even me, if I didn't know the source to tell real from non. In this instance hard doesn't mean impossible it just means that the normal way of doing things won't work.

i know exactly what you mean lon...

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[lon lewis]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Suave, I don't blame you.

Bosox, your comments are once again way off of the mark as usual. At no point has my position changed. The only one who has said that the borderless tags are retail only is YOU and then you have tried to put that out there as my statement. You know it and I know it and fortunately for me, anyone who is actually reading what I originally posted, is learning what you've done. As far as Troy is concerned, you claim that he emailed you that he had tried to purchase the order sheets from me. Let me repeat, I have had no commiunication with him of any sort on any subject. NONE. NADA, ZIP, ZILCH or any other word you can think of. So as I said before, either you're lying or he is (if indeed he made that statement). It doesn't matter which. Once again if you actually read my post to Robert you'd notice that I said that it would be "HARD" to tell the difference betweeen the real and non jerseys I did NOT say it was impossible or couldn't be done. Regarding the personal attacks don't play the innocent game. You started this with your page after monotonous page of mis-statements and lies attributed to me. I let it go until your nonsense began to spread outside the friendly confines of this forum. What did you expect would happen next? Finally the name is Lon not Ron you can't even get that right anymore.

[Vintagedeputy]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

aeneas - you hit the nail on the head! This one below about the pig made me blow a piece of fried shrimp out of my mouth!

even if you're not into jerseys i think this thread is very informative and a great read. further it's littered with gems that are sure to make you shoot your coffee through your nose...

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rudy

- ultimately, i realize that having this discussion with a guy currently trying to sell a borderless fred lynn is like trying to explain how tasty a pulled pork sandwich is to a pig. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it"