What Does A Photo "Style Match" Actually Mean?

[aeneas01]

i was recently contacted by a helmet collector who asked if i might photo "style match" a vintage helmet of his belonging to "x" player - he added that a "photo match" wasn't necessary, that it would require too much of my time and he didn't want to impose, but that a photo "style match" would be more than sufficient for his needs and much appreciated....

imo for a photo "style match" to be of any worth it would, at the very least, have to be of the player wearing the same helmet (make/model) that was outfitted with the same color and logo/stripe scheme of the era. if the process was any more general than this, i'm not really sure what could possibly be gained from the exercise. for example, if i provided the collector with a photo that showed the player wearing a helmet that matched the above points but the helmet make and/or model was different, imo little could be gained given that the photo would not prove that the player in question ever sported that particular type of helmet.

seems pretty straightforward to me - yet i frequently come across references to photo "style matches" that, imo, are nothing of the sort. nonetheless collectors don't seem to have any problem with them - almost as if just as long as the photo roughly looks like what the player was known to wear at the time, all is good. so my question to forum members is, do photo "style matches" even matter? do collectors even pay any attention to these claims?

here are two photo "style matching" examples turned in by mears that illustrate my point. despite the loa's claim, neither garment matches the "style" worn by the players in question. the jersey bonds is wearing in the game photo, referenced in the loa as a "style match" has a completely different shoulder seam style than the auction garment. and, as rudy pointed out in another thread, jerseys worn by the portland players in game photos, also referenced in the loa as "style matches", are very different in "style" when compared to the other auction garment. these are just two examples of many and, of course, mears isn't the only outfit making such claims...

so, again, what's the deal - do collectors simply ignore references to "style matches" when included in lot descriptions and/or loas? or do collectors expect these references to be meaningful - especially given that "style matching" is indeed possible....






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[mvandor]

Re: What Does A Photo "Style Match" Actually Mean?

If the seams are different, NOT a style match, they just didn't look closely enough.

Style match means visually IDENTICAL as best you can tell from a photo comparison, but not such you can match it to the specific item, like a dent on a facemask or dirt on a uni.

[aeneas01]

Re: What Does A Photo "Style Match" Actually Mean?

If the seams are different, NOT a style match, they just didn't look closely enough. Style match means visually IDENTICAL as best you can tell from a photo comparison, but not such you can match it to the specific item, like a dent on a facemask or dirt on a uni.

the shoulder seams don't match on the bonds jersey, completely different. the collar area doesn't match on the portland jersey, completely different. yet mears claims both garments were photo "style matched" to the game photos. other authenticators are guilty of the same. but in your opinion it's simply a matter of mears not looking "closely enough"? is that acceptable to you, no big deal really? is it acceptable to other collectors as well? it appears so and that's why i posted about this topic. it seems that as long as an authenticator "only" claims a photo "style match" he is in the clear, that his feet can't be held to the fire because he didn't say that the garments actually matched. but the bottom line is these folks are claiming that their garments are supported by game photos when they aren't. imo that is.

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[mvandor]

Re: What Does A Photo "Style Match" Actually Mean?

is that acceptable to you, no big deal really?

Not acceptable, no.

[UGA-1]

Re: What Does A Photo "Style Match" Actually Mean?

In my opinion, (and many others, I'm sure) it's just another way to separate the poor uneducated buyer from his hard earned money. "Style match", "A5", whatever you want to call it. It all works the same. It is a shame and should not be acceptable.

[helmets]

Re: What Does A Photo "Style Match" Actually Mean?

I'm just glad that you are finally calling them helmets instead of lids...

[aeneas01]

Re: What Does A Photo "Style Match" Actually Mean?

Not acceptable, no.

i'm with you, not acceptable. but i suppose that it ultimately boils down to an authenticator's "opinion" - at least that's what authenticators seem to frequently point to, that it's just an opinion. and, apparently, in these cases it was mears' opinion that the game photos used referenced in the loa's did in fact support a "style match". incredible.

"When MEARS is retained by either the individual collector or an auction house, we are paid to conduct an evaluation of an item and offer an opinion. This opinion is designed to permit the individual to either make an informed purchase decision or to satisfy the questions about the item in their collection. Any item submitted is either what it is represented to be or not. No letter, regardless of the supporting provenance, can make something authentic. To that end, what we offer in the form of a final product is what we have been asked to provide... a Letter of Opinion (LOO)."

http://www.mearsonline.com/policies/statement.asp

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[aeneas01]

Re: What Does A Photo "Style Match" Actually Mean?

In my opinion, (and many others, I'm sure) it's just another way to separate the poor uneducated buyer from his hard earned money. "Style match", "A5", whatever you want to call it. It all works the same. It is a shame and should not be acceptable.

grading a game used item is another can of worms and equally disturbing imo, more so in fact. i've come across a few helmets at auction that included loa's with grades and they were nothing short of mind numbing - i believe they were lampson letters. anyway in the two cases mentioned above, the bonds and portland jerseys, at the very least mears should have stated that they were unable to photo "style match" these garments - because they didn't. and i assume the only reason they didn't was because they couldn't...

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[both-teams-played-hard]

Re: What Does A Photo "Style Match" Actually Mean?

I focus on vintage jerseys, so a "photo-match" is near impossible. Black&White photos in low light don't make it easy. Sometimes a "style-match" or "photo-reference" is just as good. MEARS' Bonds and Portland Beavers photos are neither. This Seattle Chieftains is most likely the same jersey, but not a photo-match. It took more than 4 years to locate this style-match:


The short-sleeved basketball game jersey. This is not a warm-up, but a jersey with sleeves used for game play. This style was made famous by the Evansville Aces. I have a handful of the short sleeved gamers in my collection. After he finished college for Seattle University, Charlie Williams had a nice career in the ABA.
Again, "style-match" can be used irresponsibly, just like "photo-match". Recent and modern photos are plentiful, so don't waste my time or your time.

[otismalibu]

Re: What Does A Photo "Style Match" Actually Mean?

C'mon dude, live the dream.
Give that jersey a grade of BTPH 10 and print up a letter.

[UGA-1]

Re: What Does A Photo "Style Match" Actually Mean?

Robert,
The main thing that bothers me is the apparent lack of effort to try and at least find a proper photo. If they can't, they shouldn't take the chance of misleading someone. I can understand not being able to find photos on vintage items. But current and recent star players are/were photographed hundreds of times during every season. It is lack of effort when they can not see basic things like the neck line on the jersey is different from the photo. Its not that hard.I guess giving a PAID opinion doesn't require you to do research? They should change the now famous LOO "Letter of Opinion" to something more fitting like.." Unidentified:Lack of Serious Effort" or U LOSE. I would rather just trust the guys like you and others who do this for the love of this hobby. I am convinced thats the best way to get a true opinion.

[aeneas01]

Re: What Does A Photo "Style Match" Actually Mean?

I focus on vintage jerseys, so a "photo-match" is near impossible. Black&White photos in low light don't make it easy. Sometimes a "style-match" or "photo-reference" is just as good. MEARS' Bonds and Portland Beavers photos are neither. This Seattle Chieftains is most likely the same jersey, but not a photo-match. It took more than 4 years to locate this style-match.

excellent example btph - while not a "photo match" i certainly agree that it definitely constitutes a "style match". it's not a similar jersey, not roughly the same type of jersey, not more or less the same style of jersey - it's a photo "style match". clearly there should be no confusion as to what this term means - yet authenticators, i mean professional opinion givers, seem to think the term is much more loosely defined, can be used to describe just about any garment when convenient.

here's another example - according to mears' loose interpretation of the term "style match", the following game photo would equate to a "style match" when compared to the other photo. i mean both helmets are white, appear to have the same jets logos/striping and appear to have the same facemask, right? well imo this does not qualify as a "style match" because, among other problems, the helmets are different models (notice the area circled in red).

is this splitting hairs? should authenticators being given leeway when referring to an item as having been "style matched"? i don't think so. not even close. either an item can be photo "style matched" or it can't.




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[aeneas01]

Re: What Does A Photo "Style Match" Actually Mean?

Robert, The main thing that bothers me is the apparent lack of effort to try and at least find a proper photo. If they can't, they shouldn't take the chance of misleading someone. I can understand not being able to find photos on vintage items. But current and recent star players are/were photographed hundreds of times during every season. It is lack of effort when they can not see basic things like the neck line on the jersey is different from the photo. Its not that hard...

well put uga - but the thing is, i think the habit (and i do believe it has become a habit) of loa's claiming an item has been photo "style matched" when it hasn't is much more serious than a simple lack of effort - not to put too fine a point on it, such claims are bald-faced lies which artificially inflate the quality/value of an item.

mvandor - i meant to include the following comparison when i posted the jets helmet example but i spaced. it shows the difference in jersey shoulder seams (top photo, butterfly style / russell - bottom photo, set-in style / rawlings). how could an authenticator possibly claim that this is a photo "style match"? in my book it's nothing of the sort...




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