Honus Wagner Bat

[Steve Jensen]

Re: Honus Wagner Bat

I agree in that it will be interesting to see how things turn out. I am, by no means, an authenticator. I'm just basing my opinion on past experiences with buying and selling many Wagner bats and the public
demand due to scarcity. We had a Wagner decal bat from his playing days sell for $100,000+ and we've sold quite a few other Wagners (both player & coaches bats) so i have seen plenty of them come in and out. Short and light Wagner post career coaches bats typically sell in the $15-20,000 range so what is a bat from his playing days worth? Who knows, but i'd rather have this one than a coaches bat as a collector. That is probably why the best course of action is to auction it and see what it commands on the free market.

Based on the grading criteria that MEARS employs and the fact that there are a severe lack of records from this era, I feel this bat has a lot of potential. It may not be the caliber of the Wagner decal we sold for $100,000 because it's not as long. However, players from the dead ball era were definitely known to use shorter bats and the weight and thick handle are definitely Wagner-esque characteristics that are unique to him.

[nesportspromotions]

Re: Honus Wagner Bat

WOW! This is a huge range...

$1000 - 100,000

OK gentleman time to pick your brain again...

Who's letter is better strictly thinking BANG FOR THE BUCK?

PSA - Global - Mears...... Or another?

YOU GUYS ARE AWESOME!!!

[MSpecht]

Re: Honus Wagner Bat

Hi--
this has turned out to be a very interesting post, and I have enjoyed all the thoughts and opinions offered. Here are mine, just to give you an idea of some of the considerations that go into an authentication process.

First- as previously pointed out, there are few documented records available for that era, however records do exist. As far as records regarding the manufacturer's labeling, the branding is consistent with a time frame of 1905-1911 within the 1897-1911 labeling period due to the presence of the decal and the date of Wagner's endorsement contract. Using that as a jump off point, what personal records are available for Honus Wagner during that time frame?

There are only a few written H & B records known to exist prior to 1920, most notably a logbook dated from 1911 to 1914. It is clearly not a complete record of the era, and is quite worn, with missing and obscured pages. Still, it is the only documented record of that period. Annual logbooks exist for the years between 1920-1929 (except for 1924), but Wagner's last professional game was played on 9/17/1917. Thus, the incomplete 1911-1914 logbook is the best source of information. What does it say?

The following entries are the references to Wagner in that logbook;
1911- No Specified Model / 44 ounces
3- Models Not Specified / 50 ounces
1912- No Specified Model / 45 ounces

...and that's it. the sum total of documented Honus Wagner factory records, with one exception. The Honus Wagner display bat in the H & B Louisville Slugger Museum is 34.5 inches / 38 ounces. His model pulled from the vault in the early 1940s and indexed was given Model Number W107, and is most characterized by the thick handle.

Second- When looking at this bat from the photos (some details are difficult to see) It clearly has a decal on the barrel. The significance is that decal bats were available to the public, however due to recent research, examples of players using decal bats in professional games have surfaced, although it was clearly not the norm. I believe the presence of the decal is a push-- probably weighted, however, toward a retail bat (remember that Wagner signed H & B's first endorsement contract, and presumably the company built a significant public marketing effort around him at the time). In one of the above posts, Steve Jensen indicates that in his experience, retail decals appear different than decals he has seen on professional model bats. That being the case, I would urge him to make a future post that offers a photographic comparison from his previous auctions that could be used as a resource for vintage bat collectors. Regardless, researched evidence exists that decal bats were used in professional games, and were also available (presumably in much greater numbers) to the public. Documented records above shed no light on the decal issue.

Third- This bat, as measured by the original poster, measures 33 inches. That is 1.5" shorter that the only documented records that exist (Louisville Slugger Museum bat) , and is between 1.25" and 1.5" shorter than bats that have proven to be the most valuable in the auction experience, some with possible additional provenance that increase the probability of the bat being used by Honus Wagner. Most authenticators use plus/minus 0.25 inches as acceptable deviation from existing records as a standard. Does this mean that Wagner absolutely never used a 33" bat....no, but then you can't say that he absolutely never used a 28" bat or a 55" bat either, or a 30" bat, or any number you want to choose. An informed decision has to weigh the probability against the possibility, and determine value based on that assessment.

Fourth- the original poster weighed this bat at 36 ounces. How does this measure up to the documented evidence? Actually, more documentation exists concerning the weight of Wagner's professional model bats ordered for his personal use than any other aspect of his bats. Let's walk through this. This bat , if potentially game used by Wagner, dates from between 1905 and 1911, based on manufacturer's labeling, Wagner's endorsement contract, and the presence of the decal. The most pertinent evidence from that time period, the 1911-1914 log book, documents orders of bats by Wagner with weights of 44 ounces and 50 ounces in 1911 and a weight of 45 ounces in 1912. As most authenticators use a standard of plus / minus 2 ounces as a standard, this bat is between a half a pound (8 ounces) and nearly a pound (14 ounces) lighter than documented orders. One poster mentioned the use of lighter bats in the deadball era as a possible remedy for this significant difference in weight. Possibly, but remember that in athletic theory at the turn of the century, the prevailing wisdom was that weight = power, and only within the last 20 or 25 years (roughly a hundred years later) was there a switch to the idea that bat speed = power. H & B records of the era show order after order of bats that were definitely on the heavier (40 ounce plus) side than the lighter side. Also, in trying to logically think through this bat, does it seem more or less probable that, as a younger, stronger man between 1905 and 1910, Wagner would have used a bat significantly (almost a pound) lighter than his documented orders at age 37 ? This bat does come closer to the weight of the Museum bat, despite the variation in length, than the documented shipments to Wagner himself.

In the final analysis, it seems more likely that the probability that this bat was used by Honus Wagner in a professional game between the years 1905 and 1911 is very slight. If it is, indeed, a profeessional model bat, exhibiting professional game use (detailed physical examination necessary), that game use was possible by any player of the era. Thus, if the bat, upon examination, is determined to be a professional model, then it is a very nice Honus Wagner model decal bat, manufactured during his playing career, not matching documented personal factory records for Wagner, with possible professional game use by an unidentified player. If the bat were to receive a grade as suggested in an earlier post, potential buyers must read the Letter of Opinion closely and understand that the final grade, which attempts to determine a degree of probablility of use by a particular player, is currently based on a system that allows the most important factor of probability -- whether the bat matches known, documented factory records -- to be no more important than apparent professional game use by an unknown player. Unfortunately, many buyers look only at a final grade of a bat in an auction, say A7, and do not read or understand the implications of the written part of the worksheet / letter which often may state that the player never ordered that certain model or length of bat during his career.

That is the value of, and motivation behind, the Game Used Universe website-- the education of collectors. I personally enjoyed the posts from everyone on this topic, and the original poster certainly received a wealth of information about his bat. I don't know if this bat ultimately falls into the $1,000 range or the $100,000 range-- the market is what it is, and is influenced by any number of factors. I do believe, however, that an authenticator who may try to place this specific bat into Honus Wagner's hands isn't saying " It is possible that Wagner used this bat." Rather, he is saying "Well, it is not impossible." That difference is lost on a large segment of the collecting hobby.

Good Luck in future collecting.

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com

[ghostkid]

Re: Honus Wagner Bat

Mike,
Your comments are very thorough and well stated. I, for one, appreciate your efforts and admire your knowledge and skillful analysis of this bat. It seems bat collectors may now have another viable option when geting their game used bat authenticated - Mike Specht of Global!!!

Kevin Kasper

[ChrisCavalier]

Re: Honus Wagner Bat

Mike,
Your comments are very thorough and well stated. I, for one, appreciate your efforts and admire your knowledge and skillful analysis of this bat. It seems bat collectors may now have another viable option when geting their game used bat authenticated - Mike Specht of Global!!!

Kevin Kasper

Hello Kevin,

I couldn't agree more. Despite being one the co-authors of the book 'Bats' over ten years ago, I think until recently Mike has been one of the best kept secrets in terms of resources for game used bat collectors. However, as you can see from Mike's work on the GUU site and elsewhere, I think the secret is now getting out.

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier

[mjkm90]

Re: Honus Wagner Bat

imo there is absolutely nooooooooooo waaaaaaaaaaaaay that bat is going to sniff $20,000. If you don't have more than being in the weight range for a bat a player used duing his lifetime you are A5 or less. It is the wrong length, a decal bat, and has never ever been placed within 100 miles of a pro game by any of it's prior owners. There is ZERO provenance and NO record of Wagner ever ever ever using a decal bat. I'm sorry to get on a soap box like this, but this is crazy. It is a great bat, but given what is known the odds of it being a Wagner gamer are tiny.

Mike H.

[MGHProductions]

Re: Honus Wagner Bat

I have to go with Mike on this one. Wagner bats from the 20's were longer and heavier therefore making it hard for me to believe that he used a shorter/lighter bat in the prime of his career vs his coaching days. There's no iron clad evidence placing this in Wagner's hands and in my opinion would be tough to authenticate as a pro model wagner. Still a nice bat, but probably not even worth 5k. It's nice to see everyone's opinion and thoughts.
Matt

[vintagesportscollector]

Re: Honus Wagner Bat

Here is a Wagner decal currently up on Hunt...

http://www.huntauctions.com/online/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=28&lot_num=152&lot_qual=&url_referer=view_lots_items_list.cfm

[nesportspromotions]

Re: Honus Wagner Bat

"It is the wrong length, a decal bat, and has never ever been placed within 100 miles of a pro game by any of it's prior owners."

INCORRECT! It was obtained in Boston @ 3 miles from where the Boston National League team(s) played the Pirates many times over a 5-6 span.





There is ZERO provenance and NO record of Wagner ever ever ever using a decal bat.

CORRECT! I have nothing that says where it came from. No letter, no story... Nothing at all. It just magically appeared in my collection. Seriously. LOL!