Fan in Boston gets g/u bat taken away

[mattmueller]

Re: Fan in Boston gets g/u bat taken away

All:

Yes, there is a written rule, or perhaps several rules or laws about a fan taking a bat that ends up in the stands. Just look to your local, state, and federal laws under theft. It is not your property, so if the team or any of their employees or agents determine they want their property back, they have the right to do so. It is their property, period. Just because there is no sign posted saying that you can't take the bat home doesn't mean it is yours. Is there a sign at Walmart that says you can't take things home without paying for it? No, because everybody knows that is theft.

Matt

[murfsteve25]

Re: Fan in Boston gets g/u bat taken away

Thanks to everyone who has shared their inputs. We have provided a lot of educated opinions on this matter.

This thread is starting to get a little heated. While we can go back and forth all year long on the morals or lagality of what to do in this situation...the question we've come up with is....

IS THERE ANY WRITTEN RULE WHERE A FAN MUST RETURN A BAT THAT ENDS UP IN THE STANDS??

So far the answer to this question is no.

[chakes89]

Re: Fan in Boston gets g/u bat taken away

Why are you so worried about this?

Chances are, it will never happen to you and the situation will not come up.

[gingi79]

Re: Fan in Boston gets g/u bat taken away

For the record I reported certain posts for their obnoxious and rude comments. I don't hide behind my morals and I have a fiery temper but Suicide didnt deserve the attack.

I say this because while he is a fiery guy, the man makes point. It is easy to pretend we are tough while typing words. However, the Squeeze wasn't being a tough guy in saying he would hold on tight to a bat. I would to. Suicide has been nothing but honest and true in his posts and the Red Sox were wrong in taking the fans bat. It's messed up to steal someones property like that. I can only hope a million dollar lawsuit is placed against the Sox and the Usher in question.

Sorry to all fellow forum members who disagree. How about we just agree to disagree? Suicide and I feel like the fan who was molested for his bat got the short end of the stick. Disagree with us? Ok, you are wrong but ok

[suicide_squeeze]

Re: Fan in Boston gets g/u bat taken away

Back in the late 80's I was at a game. A bat flew into the stands and an usher came over to retrieve it. The fan refused to give the bat back. Security then arrived and the fan still refused. Security physically removed him from his seat and the stadium. I later heard, through the grapevine, that the fan was perma banned from the stadium.

OK......and?

Did the fan leave the stadium with the bat?

Are we talking about a MLB game?

On what grounds, legal or otherwise, was the fan permanently banned from the stadium? Or, was that just a rumor?


In other words......what do we really know now, after you shared this info, that we didn't know before?

I mean no argument, disrespect, or wanton disagreement with you or in what you are saying. But forum members......please consider what I am saying. Short of a written document, be it on the back of your ticket, a posted notice in the stadium, or some other legal document made public....there is no established policy for how to handle this situation.

Unless it clearly states you "Must turn over to proper authority any bat leaving the playing field that ends up in the seats"......which I have yet to see or read ANYWHERE (it doesn't address it on the back of Dodger Stadium tickets).....it's Charleton Heston time, baby!

Just because you've been to Fenway Park for 150 games in your life, and you watched the way security handles paying customers in their neck of the country, doesn't make you knowledgable on what the actual standard practice is when a bat flies into the crowd. Like I have said, it is so off the norm, and startling, that when it happens, the fan that has just saved the day by corraling it is usually caught off guard when someone of authority approaches them quickly to retrieve it. JUST DON'T LET IT GO is my advice. If you for some reason become permanently banned for doing so, there are obvious steps you could take to remedy that quickly.

Like find an attorney to demand factual evidence that the fan should have known that any bat coming into the stands was not a souvenir. THAT is what I am looking for here, and no one has come up with it.

I'm waiting....

[NYCrulesU]

Re: Fan in Boston gets g/u bat taken away

Back in the late 80's I was at a game. A bat flew into the stands and an usher came over to retrieve it. The fan refused to give the bat back. Security then arrived and the fan still refused. Security physically removed him from his seat and the stadium. I later heard, through the grapevine, that the fan was perma banned from the stadium.

[suicide_squeeze]

Re: Fan in Boston gets g/u bat taken away

From past experience back in the days when a game used bat was not desirable or fans were less aware of the value of a game used bat it was always the discretion of the player to want the bat back on not. Typically a bat boy was sent to the area where the bat landed with a replacement bat for trade. I've even seen cases where the fan tried to give the bat back and the player not wanting it and the lucky fan ended up keeping it. Those were the old days from what I recall happening at Shea.

Call me old fashioned but that's the way it should way be.

Now we have stadium goons descending on fans to grab the bats away.

That's the sore point of this particular incident which is bringing out the emotions set forth.

I still think it was a Steiner rep

metsbats.......That's the way it is.

I respect mattmuellers statements on the matter. They make sense. But I still don't believe there is any written directive that dictates a fan MUST
give back a bat that jetisons into his lap. I don't care what comes at me in way of security, they aren't getting the damn bat back if it's ME!

I stand by my earlier statements......someone provide proof, and I'll change my opinion......but I don't believe anyone will be able to.

[metsbats]

Re: Fan in Boston gets g/u bat taken away

From past experience back in the days when a game used bat was not desirable or fans were less aware of the value of a game used bat it was always the discretion of the player to want the bat back on not. Typically a bat boy was sent to the area where the bat landed with a replacement bat for trade. I've even seen cases where the fan tried to give the bat back and the player not wanting it and the lucky fan ended up keeping it. Those were the old days from what I recall happening at Shea.

Call me old fashioned but that's the way it should way be.

Now we have stadium goons descending on fans to grab the bats away.

That's the sore point of this particular incident which is bringing out the emotions set forth.

I still think it was a Steiner rep

[eisenreich8]

Re: Fan in Boston gets g/u bat taken away

I was looking at stadium rules for various teams. The standard language is "be alert for foul balls and bats going into the stands. Fans may keep foul balls". There is no reference to what a fan can do if a bat ends up in their hands.

Because there is no written rule I think the fan has the right to challenge the usher or security personnel trying to get it back.

Metsbats, that was my original and concise point. I was merely stating that if the intent of the organization was to retrieve the bat, they were going to do so. Win. Succeed. Prevail. Thye do not, and wisely so, begin a process and then melt in the face of opposition. Various teams do perhaps have/enforce rules differently, even selectively, but the original poster was specifically addressing an incident at Fenway Park. I'm not John Henry but I do know beyond all doubt that over 40 years of attending games at Fenway, park security/BPD will never waffle on a commitment to enforce what THEY have set in place for, even, rules-du-jour.

I have seen people dragged out of the park for arguing about the smoking policy. Or being tipsy. Or pickpocketing. Or various other unruly behaviors/actions that are sometimes enforced through the park's own interpretation. The fan does not have to be right or wrong. They just have to be at that end of the stick to experience the wrath. Same goes for Pats games, only far worse.

The lucky recipient of a pinwheeling bat into the stands is not assured of keeping it. Any more than if the umpire were to lose his wristwatch over the wall, or Vlad was to lose his fielder's glove over the wall, or if Arod were to lose his shades over the wall. The fans are spectators. They are not minority owners of the team. It's not (always) finders-keepers at the old ballyard.

Any of the other MLB/MiLB parks may have their own policies, more stringently or more casually enforced.

A good case study would be for a fan to actually catch an unintentionally released bat in the stands at Fenway and attempt to steadfastly refuse to part with it, under any circumstances, adamantly rebuffing all requests/demands from park officials to surrender it, and have the entire episode televised.

Until and unless that were to happen, all other scenarios are rendered moot. My money though, as far as Fenway goes, is still on the Northeastern University football players they hire as stadium beef.

[metsbats]

Re: Fan in Boston gets g/u bat taken away

I was looking at stadium rules for various teams. The standard language is "be alert for foul balls and bats going into the stands. Fans may keep foul balls". There is no reference to what a fan can do if a bat ends up in their hands.

Because there is no written rule I think the fan has the right to challenge the usher or security personnel trying to get it back.

[eisenreich8]

Re: Fan in Boston gets g/u bat taken away

You have anything to back that up?

Because they wouldn't from me, and that's a fact....quickly, neatly, completely, or any which way.

Yes, I do,

Share with us how many games you've watched in person at Fenway Park. Please? Zero. I have in my lifetime been to between 100-150. Since we are talking about an incident in the seats at Fenway Park, mind you, I am going to back up my statement by telling you in my expert, East Coast, Red Sox-game-attending expertise that you would do as well keeping your precious bat as you would against the 82nd Airborne. Red Sox security would give you last rites.





I made a few statement opinion,

[mattmueller]

Re: Fan in Boston gets g/u bat taken away

Squeeze:

The scenario you described has nothing to do with the legality of whose bat it is, it is purely a question of public relations between fans and a team.

In my prior post(s), I summarized the legal argument used in the most famous of relevant cases, the Bonds ball. What other proof would you like? Do you want me to find and link to the legal opinion in the Bonds ball case?

Let me turn it back to you. What legal basis (not PR issues or your tough guy "from my cold dead hands" argument) would you cite that you feel makes your statement that once a bat crosses some imaginary line and enters the stands, the team gives up its property rights and it becomes the property of the person who possesses it? Maybe I missed that part of any of your previous posts that actually provided some sort of factual basis for your stance.

Matt

[suicide_squeeze]

Re: Fan in Boston gets g/u bat taken away

Right. If the organization's intention is to get the bat back, they are going to get the bat back. Quickly, neatly, completely.

You have anything to back that up?

Because they wouldn't from me, and that's a fact....quickly, neatly, completely, or any which way.

[suicide_squeeze]

Re: Fan in Boston gets g/u bat taken away

It's just a situation of the guy in the seats not knowing what to do in the heat of the moment. These types of situations always catch the fans off guard. The only ones who wouldn't be caught off guard are......well, guys like us, because we've discussed it.


Let me ask you, mattmueller, to consider this scenario.

A guy sitting in the stands has a bat hurled at him by a player who loses his grip. The fan catches the bat, and is able to remain unharmed, and in catching the bat saves the others around him from getting hurt. So here comes Mr. Tool, the security guard, who immediately reaches to the fan's recovered bat saying "O.K. give it over now sir."

The fan says "Take a hike, it's mine now" as he pulls the bat away from the reach of the security guard. So now the guard is getting in the face of the fan, who is now standing and arguing with the guard, as another couple of security guards approach. The fan has a death grip on the bat with both hands, and the one guard is arguing to hand it over as he reaches over with one hand and starts to get into a minor tug-of-war over the bat.

What do you think the fan reaction is going to be? What.....do you think is going to happen to the reputation of the ballpark's management, the ownership, and the idiot ballplayer who allowed the dangerous event to occur if they pry that bat out of the guys hands, wrongfully, as the boo's increase in number and severity as this debacle unfolds before their eyes?

If the fan reads this post, all he has to remember is one thing: Just don't let go.....it's YOURS. Eventually, the coward security guards, team reps, etc., will become embarrassed over the scene they are making and walk away from the fan. If they escorted the guy off, they could be sued for wrongfully ejecting a fan who paid for his seats to enjoy the game. He did nothing wrong but protect himself and the fans seated around him from serious injury. Let's see someone in ownership of a Major League Franchise try to fight that one in court.

They (the ballpark personel, the player who let go of it, whomever....) have no rights to that bat any longer. Period. Once it enters the seats, it's a souvenir.

Nothing personal Matt, I just respectfully disagree with your view.

Prove me wrong, and I'll state my public congratulatory handshake to you. I haven't seen any proof yet.

[godwulf]

Re: Fan in Boston gets g/u bat taken away

As true as all of that may be, I would still be very interested to know whether that Security guy was acting on his own initiative, or if he had been given prior direction to do what he did. In all of my many years of watching Baseball, I have, of course, seen many bats retrieved, at the direction of the player or dugout, by ushers and others - usually quickly followed by its replacement with another bat - but I have never seen Security, or anyone else, simply swoop in like that, apparently on their own, and snatch a bat away.