HELP; Anyone dispute an auction house over item cannot photomatch?

[Rich Ellis]

Re: HELP; Anyone dispute an auction house over item cannot photomatch?

Sorry my signature was made back when Chris invited me to join his site as a hockey authenticator, when he originally started the site. I did not know he changed his rules now that he is an auction house.. I guess I am in direct competition, huh?

I am not in agreement with this rule, buts its his site not mine.

I will change my sig.

[Dewey2007]

Re: HELP; Anyone dispute an auction house over item cannot photomatch?

Thanks for the help Schubert! Yea, the only problem is that I don't have access to MLB tv and secondly, like you said, will all the 21 game innings have a nice, HD quality-type, spot to pause and take a clear picture? Maybe so, I don't know since I never have went on/seen MLB tv.com site and their re-broadcasted games.

Sure, if someone wants to help me out and has that kind of time, I would be honored and even pay a fee for doing so. But I don't really want to ask that of anyone specifically.

As Legal said, I hate to put this in any auction as a) The last thing I want is someone (probably outside GUU) bid on it thinking they are getting what I thought I got and b) Most auction viewers are probably GUU members and I'm sure I wouldn't even hit a reserve.
But outside of that, there's no grounds I can see of getting a refund from the auction house so it's what I might have to do, to at least give it a shot. Hmmmm...

I say re-consign it to the auction house you got it from. They stand by the authenticity and quality of their product so they shouldn't have any problems including it in their next auction.

[nickacs]

Re: HELP; Anyone dispute an auction house over item cannot photomatch?

Thanks for the help Schubert! Yea, the only problem is that I don't have access to MLB tv and secondly, like you said, will all the 21 game innings have a nice, HD quality-type, spot to pause and take a clear picture? Maybe so, I don't know since I never have went on/seen MLB tv.com site and their re-broadcasted games.

Sure, if someone wants to help me out and has that kind of time, I would be honored and even pay a fee for doing so. But I don't really want to ask that of anyone specifically.

As Legal said, I hate to put this in any auction as a) The last thing I want is someone (probably outside GUU) bid on it thinking they are getting what I thought I got and b) Most auction viewers are probably GUU members and I'm sure I wouldn't even hit a reserve.
But outside of that, there's no grounds I can see of getting a refund from the auction house so it's what I might have to do, to at least give it a shot. Hmmmm...

[schubert1970]

Re: HELP; Anyone dispute an auction house over item cannot photomatch?

"impossible task" lol. No, a solution. If I paid that much I start watching
you never know. How do you know he wouldn't find a match in the first game? Actually, trying to match your items is the best part of the hobby.

You may not find your answer by doing this, but it's not impossible and at least you tried everything......and you might get lucky.

[legaleagle92481]

Re: HELP; Anyone dispute an auction house over item cannot photomatch?

Just fast forward to Jeter ab's you could
look at all these games in a few hours easy
I do this all the time.

well think about it game worn does not necessairly mean at bat worn he could have worn it for one inning on the field. this is an impossible task whether it be video or photos or whatever. what if switched into it and wore it on the bench in the bottom of the ninth and did not bat in the inning. isn't that still techincally game worn. for example the mo jersey that was in the game used universe auction last year was sold as gu even though mo did not pitch in the game it was from and is currently being resold on ebay as such and was originally labeled by steiner as such. this guy is never going to know for sure either way. if the auction house refuses a refund then what does he do incur legal fees and expenses suing them? those add up fast and as an attorney i can tell you that very rarely do courts award a plaintiff legal fees and expenses and if he loses then he is throwing good money after bad. selling it in an auction will not work either as everyone who looks at the site is now familiar with the jersey and with the questions raised by the current owner, is anyone going to gamble a signifcant amount of money on this thing? it seems doubtful. and i would imagine a large portion of the potential bidders are either members or guests of this site. it is the true nightmare situation for every collector and i feel terriable for him.

[schubert1970]

Re: HELP; Anyone dispute an auction house over item cannot photomatch?

Just fast forward to Jeter ab's you could
look at all these games in a few hours easy
I do this all the time.

[legaleagle92481]

Re: HELP; Anyone dispute an auction house over item cannot photomatch?

Can't you just look at the video from each game on MLB.com?

he would have to sit through 21 games in their entirety which would take forever and a day.

[schubert1970]

Re: HELP; Anyone dispute an auction house over item cannot photomatch?

Can't you just look at the video from each game on MLB.com?

[nickacs]

Re: HELP; Anyone dispute an auction house over item cannot photomatch?

Wow, thanks everyone for chiming in! Rich, great post and I completely agree looking at it from another angle.
Sure, there are Getty/AP/Corbis/etc photos that have at least one photo from every 21 home games. But like you said, Rich, I would need a photo from every 9 innings from all 21 games to be totally comprehensive, which would be impossible.

Uhhh... Sorry, just sighing at the whole thing. Man, what a BIG lesson learned. I guess I still feel some kind of grounds for refund (what little that might be) that when I "bid in confidence" on my end vs. the auction description stating the jersey was definitely worn in one of the 21 games, it's just not right. To me, there's dishonesty there and leading me on to believe the jersey I bid on and won was one of the 21 game used jerseys.

However, the bottom line is that I understand when it comes down to it, it was my fault to bid in the first place without researching first. But... at the same time, I do feel in my heart that I was mislead by the auction description stating it's game use and timeframe.
I guess it's the 'ol agree to disagree standpoint.

I hate to say this but I just can't sit on this and literally thrown down $5k+ (close to $7k with hammer) for something that may be game used and really stretching it that it may have been used in one inning of 21 games.
It's either I have to find some better grounds to get a refund or I'm going to have to put it in a future auction to at least recoup some of my money. I just HATE to do this because I know in my heart this was not used in one of the 21 games. We all have our opinions on what might the jersey be (all good ones may I add!), but deep down I personally don't feel I got my monies worth on something that should be very easy to photomatch and should have had a MLB hologram# to finalize it's game use/date(s) used.

As a fellow memorabilia collector, I just think if I put it up in an auction, I feel I'm lying to someone out there who might buy it for the same reason I did But if I can't find better grounds for refund, it's what I might have to do........ Grrrrr.....

Thanks again for everyone's input and listening to me! I can't thank you all enough

[suave1477]

Re: HELP; Anyone dispute an auction house over item cannot photomatch?

I deal with a lot of photo matching on the hockey end and I used to work for Leland's back in 2003 and I authenticate for many auction houses now.

My suggestion is contact the direct source, meaning call the Yankees and get in touch with the equipment manager who worked during this time frame and ask the right questions.

Most teams in professional sports that sell their game used items, especially during patched years do patch up a lot of extra sets and even post patch jerseys that were not during the time frame on when the patches were worn. Why do they do this? One to have extras just encase for backups, two and probably the main reason why they do it, patched jerseys are more coveted and most of the time sell for more then none patched jerseys.

According to the auction description you may have a case if you prove them wrong which won't happen (read below), the auction house made a mistake in giving what they believe is the exact time from of when the jersey was worn. Where Steiner does not, their LOA is very vague only stating that it is a game used jersey with 10 and arm band, which in a court of law would not mean that Jeter wore it given what the auction says it was worn. Like people have said in this post it could have been worn before being patched and the patch could have been added on after the fact. Unfortunately in a court of law you would need to show you have every photo of Jeter from every inning from that time frame and a clear enough photo to be used in photo matching. The odds of that happening is zero. What your making now is a generalization statement, which would not hold any water.

Photo matching albeit fun and exciting and when done properly can solidify authenticity and improve a pieces monetary value, it can not be used as the end all be all for an item. For the very reason above, no one has every photo of every inning of every game of every player. All it takes is the photographer to miss that one inning which the jersey in question could have been worn.

I personally believe a customer must feel comfortable with their purchase from an auction house. But when you registered with an auction house, you did agree to abide by all terms set forth by that auction house and on many occasions an auction house will stand by those terms which I believe they are doing now in your case. Now if you find out from the Yankees equipment manager that he put on the armband and numbers onto sets that were not used during the auction houses specific time frame you have a case that holds water and could be used in a court of law. The auction house would then bare the burden of proof because other sets were lettered up and how does the common collector determine which is which, this would also put a cloud on every jersey ever offered by Steiner with the arm band and numbers. All of them would need to be determined.

Last note - the equipment managers of the world control the hobby always have and always will. Just remember that.

I hope this helps a little bit with your Jeter situation.

Rich first let me say welcome to the forum.

I would just like to point out to oyou one of the forum rules before anything happens or you get reprimanded.

Your not suppose to advertise your company - logo or email or anything

[Rich Ellis]

Re: HELP; Anyone dispute an auction house over item cannot photomatch?

I deal with a lot of photo matching on the hockey end and I used to work for Leland's back in 2003 and I authenticate for many auction houses now.

My suggestion is contact the direct source, meaning call the Yankees and get in touch with the equipment manager who worked during this time frame and ask the right questions.

Most teams in professional sports that sell their game used items, especially during patched years do patch up a lot of extra sets and even post patch jerseys that were not during the time frame on when the patches were worn. Why do they do this? One to have extras just encase for backups, two and probably the main reason why they do it, patched jerseys are more coveted and most of the time sell for more then none patched jerseys.

According to the auction description you may have a case if you prove them wrong which won't happen (read below), the auction house made a mistake in giving what they believe is the exact time from of when the jersey was worn. Where Steiner does not, their LOA is very vague only stating that it is a game used jersey with 10 and arm band, which in a court of law would not mean that Jeter wore it given what the auction says it was worn. Like people have said in this post it could have been worn before being patched and the patch could have been added on after the fact. Unfortunately in a court of law you would need to show you have every photo of Jeter from every inning from that time frame and a clear enough photo to be used in photo matching. The odds of that happening is zero. What your making now is a generalization statement, which would not hold any water.

Photo matching albeit fun and exciting and when done properly can solidify authenticity and improve a pieces monetary value, it can not be used as the end all be all for an item. For the very reason above, no one has every photo of every inning of every game of every player. All it takes is the photographer to miss that one inning which the jersey in question could have been worn.

I personally believe a customer must feel comfortable with their purchase from an auction house. But when you registered with an auction house, you did agree to abide by all terms set forth by that auction house and on many occasions an auction house will stand by those terms which I believe they are doing now in your case. Now if you find out from the Yankees equipment manager that he put on the armband and numbers onto sets that were not used during the auction houses specific time frame you have a case that holds water and could be used in a court of law. The auction house would then bare the burden of proof because other sets were lettered up and how does the common collector determine which is which, this would also put a cloud on every jersey ever offered by Steiner with the arm band and numbers. All of them would need to be determined.

Last note - the equipment managers of the world control the hobby always have and always will. Just remember that.

I hope this helps a little bit with your Jeter situation.

[BULBUS]

Re: HELP; Anyone dispute an auction house over item cannot photomatch?

My first thought after reading your initial post, was like other members said, maybe the jersey was used earlier in the season, the 10 was added, and then it wasn't used again. If that is the case, and you can photo match it, you still have a nice jersey at a reasonable price.

If you have exhausted every avenue and still can't find a photo match, I would pursue a refund as well. With the use that the jersey shows and the many pictures of Jeter out there, you should be able to match it.

-Chris

[mbenga28]

Re: HELP; Anyone dispute an auction house over item cannot photomatch?

I was looking at some GettyImages and the placement of the interlocking NY from the photoshoot session prior to the start of the season looked very identical to yours but not a photo match. hope it works out and good luck nick!

[sportscentury]

Re: HELP; Anyone dispute an auction house over item cannot photomatch?

Thanks all you guys! MUCH appreciate your time, comments and help

Yea, I guess it could be possible. Uggg, trying to go through all the 2007 home games from April - August might be a pain, but hey, at this point it won't hurt!
My thing is that ok, let's say this is what happened. If the jersey was advertised as "game worn" by Steiner, Lampson (LOL) and the auction house, then, personally, I feel this jersey needs to be on the player and on the field during the timeframe the patches were worn starting 8/14/07. Granted the jersey might have been worn in earlier 2007 game(s), I would expect to only see the armband, which was worn all (I think?) of 2007 Yankee season. The added patches "suggest" the timeframe of game use, so again, to me, I should see this on Jeter during that time. Anything else to me = fail. Then the auction description should have said used "sometime in 2007", but it did indeed say it was used in the timeframe I've said.

Here's the exact lot description:
"Home white size 48 Majestic New York Yankees jersey worn by Derek Jeter later in the 2007 season. The jersey was worn by Jeter in Yankee Stadium between August 14th and September 24th due to the fact that it has the #10 and black mourning band on the left sleeve. The jersey shows light to medium use, is accompanied by a Yankee-Steiner Collectibles LOA and grades out an impressive 9.5 overall by Lou Lampson. Jeter, a long time fan favorite, recently passed Lou Gehrig on the Yankees all time hit list with 2,721 career hits. If Jeter keeps up his current pace, he will join the 3,000 hit club at the end of the 2010 season. This jersey is truly special due to the fact the left sleeve has the proudly displayed "10" and black mourning band that pays tribute to the original Yankee great leader at shortstop, Phil "Scooter" Rizzuto, who led the Yanks to 7 World Series Championships during his 13 seasons. This jersey is symbolic and meaningful to generations of Yankees fans and was only worn for a total of 21 homes games during the 2007 season. Jeter game used jerseys are already very coveted and this one is certainly one of the most important and difficult of all the home pinstripe jerseys to obtain."

See what I'm saying? I expect by the auction lot description that I better see this jersey on Jeter, on the field and in action in at least one of those 21 games. Again, since the jersey doesn't photomatch to any of those 21 games, I don't consider the game use of the jersey to be what was described.


Not trying to fight anyone on the idea, please keep'em coming! I welcome any/all comments, believe me.

Nick, I hope this works out for you. I'll be the first to tell you that Steiner gets some truly amazing game worn items. I have purchased several myself over the years. But the Steiner tracking system has never been what they have represented it to be. It's a big problem. This, coupled with problems of folks selling game issues as game worns and Steiner replacing "lost" letters would lead me to only pick up one of these items if it were already photomatched. Or, as the Steiner rep advised LegalEagle, only buy directly from Steiner. The photomatching requirement should be pretty easy to meet for the home pinstripes and also the home and road pants (many of which have team repairs). The road jerseys would be harder, of course, but MeiGray can manage the photomatching in these situations.

[nickacs]

Re: HELP; Anyone dispute an auction house over item cannot photomatch?

Thanks all you guys! MUCH appreciate your time, comments and help

Yea, I guess it could be possible. Uggg, trying to go through all the 2007 home games from April - August might be a pain, but hey, at this point it won't hurt!
My thing is that ok, let's say this is what happened. If the jersey was advertised as "game worn" by Steiner, Lampson (LOL) and the auction house, then, personally, I feel this jersey needs to be on the player and on the field during the timeframe the patches were worn starting 8/14/07. Granted the jersey might have been worn in earlier 2007 game(s), I would expect to only see the armband, which was worn all (I think?) of 2007 Yankee season. The added patches "suggest" the timeframe of game use, so again, to me, I should see this on Jeter during that time. Anything else to me = fail. Then the auction description should have said used "sometime in 2007", but it did indeed say it was used in the timeframe I've said.

Here's the exact lot description:
"Home white size 48 Majestic New York Yankees jersey worn by Derek Jeter later in the 2007 season. The jersey was worn by Jeter in Yankee Stadium between August 14th and September 24th due to the fact that it has the #10 and black mourning band on the left sleeve. The jersey shows light to medium use, is accompanied by a Yankee-Steiner Collectibles LOA and grades out an impressive 9.5 overall by Lou Lampson. Jeter, a long time fan favorite, recently passed Lou Gehrig on the Yankees all time hit list with 2,721 career hits. If Jeter keeps up his current pace, he will join the 3,000 hit club at the end of the 2010 season. This jersey is truly special due to the fact the left sleeve has the proudly displayed "10" and black mourning band that pays tribute to the original Yankee great leader at shortstop, Phil "Scooter" Rizzuto, who led the Yanks to 7 World Series Championships during his 13 seasons. This jersey is symbolic and meaningful to generations of Yankees fans and was only worn for a total of 21 homes games during the 2007 season. Jeter game used jerseys are already very coveted and this one is certainly one of the most important and difficult of all the home pinstripe jerseys to obtain."

See what I'm saying? I expect by the auction lot description that I better see this jersey on Jeter, on the field and in action in at least one of those 21 games. Again, since the jersey doesn't photomatch to any of those 21 games, I don't consider the game use of the jersey to be what was described.


Not trying to fight anyone on the idea, please keep'em coming! I welcome any/all comments, believe me.