Photo matched PR4192 Rose bat with surprise!!!!

[tacprc]

Re: Photo matched PR4192 Rose bat with surprise!!!!

Steve / Cowboy John,

Please ignore my last post.

I just got off the phone with Bill, and he pointed me to the American Memorabilia website where there is a slightly larger photo of your bat's knob.

I can fairly clearly see the A there.

Chuck

[CowboyJohn]

Re: Photo matched PR4192 Rose bat with surprise!!!!

Steve / Cowboy John,

Please ignore my last post.

I just got off the phone with Bill, and he pointed me to the American Memorabilia website where there is a slightly larger photo of your bat's knob.

I can fairly clearly see the A there.

Chuck

No problem Chuck. He used both style knobs in 1985. I did some fairly extensive research before I bid on the bat. I did even more than I normally would have because it was being auctioned off by AMI.

Shortly after I received the bat, I went to a signing to meet Rose, and had some pictures taken of him with the bat. I posted the stroy of the meeting here months back. He asked me how I got the bat, instantly recognizing it as one of his gamers. He was NOT happy about the fact Bobby Wine sold it and made money on a nice "gift" he (Rose) had given him. He turned to Rod Carew and told him it was a gamer of his he had given to his old coach, and Rod just shook his head. Tony Gwynn, who was sitting there too blurted out "I would have sold it to. You're WORTH a lot of money!" It was pretty funny, but Rose wasn't laughing.

Here he is holding the bat...

[tacprc]

Re: Photo matched PR4192 Rose bat with surprise!!!!

Steve, Thanks for the story and the pictures. Chuck

[schubert1970]

Re: Photo matched PR4192 Rose bat with surprise!!!!

http://reds.enquirer.com/2004/01/13/red2qa.html

Q. The book has brought forth some of your accusers again. Your former friend, Tommy Gioiosa says you were using a corked bat when you were chasing Ty Cobb's hit record in 1985. He also said that 1985 is the year you financed a cocaine deal. He said he picked up $50,000 cash at your house, drove to Florida, and that seven days later he brought you $100,000 in a Gold Gym's bag. Everybody held you up on pedestal in '85 when you on the verge of breaking Cobb's all-time hit record. These sorts of accusations tarnish that pursuit, don't they?
A. You know what I would tell you to do? Go up to (memorabilila seller) Steve Wolter (in Montgomery) and get that 4,192 bat and take it to an examiner and see if there's any cork in it. I guarantee you there won't be. ... If somebody has a corked bat that has my name on it, bring it on down.

[spartakid]

Re: Photo matched PR4192 Rose bat with surprise!!!!

http://reds.enquirer.com/2004/01/13/red2qa.html


Q. The book has brought forth some of your accusers again. Your former friend, Tommy Gioiosa says you were using a corked bat when you were chasing Ty Cobb's hit record in 1985. He also said that 1985 is the year you financed a cocaine deal. He said he picked up $50,000 cash at your house, drove to Florida, and that seven days later he brought you $100,000 in a Gold Gym's bag. Everybody held you up on pedestal in '85 when you on the verge of breaking Cobb's all-time hit record. These sorts of accusations tarnish that pursuit, don't they?
A. You know what I would tell you to do? Go up to (memorabilila seller) Steve Wolter (in Montgomery) and get that 4,192 bat and take it to an examiner and see if there's any cork in it. I guarantee you there won't be. ... If somebody has a corked bat that has my name on it, bring it on down.

Looks like some people need to take a road trip to Pete's and bring 'em down to him.

[CowboyJohn]

Re: Photo matched PR4192 Rose bat with surprise!!!!

Looks like some people need to take a road trip to Pete's and bring 'em down to him.

Well, after some soul searching when I discovered my bat was corked, I did (see pictures above). But I decided that I just wasn't important enough in the grand scheme of things to embarrass him by sticking his gamer in his face, having him sing praise over the "nice bat you got there", involve Rod Carew and Tony Gwynn (and Tony Gwynn Jr., too) in a conversation on how disappointed he was his old coach sold this gift to make money on him.

You see, God help me, I like Pete Rose. I know the man is flawed, maybe more than most...maybe not. But he is a personable guy, friendly as hell to his fans. He takes time to talk to you. He makes you feel good because he doesn't treat you like a paycheck, like some a-holes do (Reggie Jackson, Jim Brown, Rod Carew, etc.)

I know that's not a reason for excusing him for doing something illegal in our great game, but he didn't get his base hits by sticking a needle in his ass to make himself stronger, with little possibility of having a down day due to being "artificially fresh" every day. He did it with raw talent, and longevity. He hustled his way through a long wonderful career, and I just don't place much value on the fact he may have earned a few of his 4,256 hits with the questionable aid of "cork" performance enhanced bats. There really is no proof or evidence, other than a few episodes on the field where a very small number of pro ball players wished they hadn't used one when the little secret broke all over the infield grass, that corked bats do anything worthwhile for a batter. He was absolutely one of the greatest contact hitters the game has ever seen. Add to that the fact he is still standing, after all he's been through (yes, and all self-inflicted), I can't help but like the guy. If only somewhere along his depressing journey, he would have found some sincere remorse, and was truly able to spew out a humble apology to everyone...I think he would have been reinstated by now. But we all saw a whole different approach, and bad timing from taking an opportunity to make money by selling a book. He just can't seem to get his footing down in this dance called life.

But the fact Pete used one of these little altered beauties at such a historic and overwhelmingly important time in his career, with baseball history on the line, and his standing and respect in life for that matter, just shows us how out of control he was personally. To laugh it off when questioned by Tommy Gioiosa what he would do if one broke....is just mind-boggling. He really must have thought he could do no wrong.

I never wanted to have any part, no matter how small or insignificant, in detracting from Pete's chances of reinstatement and ultimate election to the Hall of Fame that would no doubt bring. But as someone once said to me "It's not you that did this...It was Pete Rose."

[CowboyJohn]

Re: Photo matched PR4192 Rose bat with surprise!!!!

Well, after some soul searching when I discovered my bat was corked, I did (see pictures above). But I decided that I just wasn't important enough in the grand scheme of things to embarrass him by sticking his gamer in his face, having him sing praise over the "nice bat you got there", involve Rod Carew and Tony Gwynn (and Tony Gwynn Jr., too) in a conversation on how disappointed he was his old coach sold this gift to make money on him......only to say in front of them all, and anyone in ear shot "Hey, Pete, by the way....check out this X-ray I took of your bat! What's up with the cork here, Mr. Rose??"

I left out the highlighted portion above at the end of the first paragraph, sorry!

[spartakid]

Re: Photo matched PR4192 Rose bat with surprise!!!!

I see what you mean, maybe if it were in a less public place, but yea; you definitely wouldn't want to call him out in front of everyone. I would be interested to know what he would say though.

[CowboyJohn]

Re: Photo matched PR4192 Rose bat with surprise!!!!

I see what you mean, maybe if it were in a less public place, but yea; you definitely wouldn't want to call him out in front of everyone. I would be interested to know what he would say though.

Well, with Bill's photo-match find, we all may get that chance soon if some media network finds this interesting enough. After all, accusations are what makes the media churn.

But proof....that's a whole different beast.

[spartakid]

Re: Photo matched PR4192 Rose bat with surprise!!!!

I would assume that someone would think it interesting enough to publish. The one thing that I can't figure out about this is the fact that Pete would let these bats get out. I mean if I were doing something like this, I would guard these bats with my life, and destroy them after I was done with them. I mean to let all these bats get out there and he had to know that it was probably inevitable that someone would find out eventually. BTW, do you think it will cause a decline in the value of his bats, increase the value, or do nothing. Normally I would say go down, but with Pete's bad rep already, it may not affect it too much.

[CowboyJohn]

Re: Photo matched PR4192 Rose bat with surprise!!!!

Another thought...

Any carbon dating experts here on the forum?

I have read some on the process, but it's unclear from what I've read if carbon dating the materials on/in these (now 25 years old bats) could result in accurate confirmation that the cork was placed in these bats close to the time they were made.

If so, that would eliminate the need to find the conclusive barrel-end shot of Bill's bat. If we could find a photo of the number 14 on the end of the barrel, and photo match it without question to Bill's as was done with the knob "14", that would leave no question that that bat, on the cover of Beckett's magazine, photo-matched as the very same one Bill now owns, did in fact possess cork inside of it the moment that photo was taken.

We're working on it.

But if anyone knows if carbon dating works in such a short time frame, that would be helpful. In general, the longer the time passed, the better results carbon dating achieves. I don't know if 25 years is even measurable from what I've read.

P.S. Note to Bud Selig...If you come asking for either Bill or I to send you our bats for examination, I think I can speak for Bill too: Go pound SAND. If you want to start working on your legacy, start by overturning Jim Joyce's blown call in the perfect game that...wasn't. Do SOMETHING right and worthwhile before your reign at the helm of America's pastime is over.

[CowboyJohn]

Re: Photo matched PR4192 Rose bat with surprise!!!!

I would assume that someone would think it interesting enough to publish. The one thing that I can't figure out about this is the fact that Pete would let these bats get out. I mean if I were doing something like this, I would guard these bats with my life, and destroy them after I was done with them. I mean to let all these bats get out there and he had to know that it was probably inevitable that someone would find out eventually. BTW, do you think it will cause a decline in the value of his bats, increase the value, or do nothing. Normally I would say go down, but with Pete's bad rep already, it may not affect it too much.

I thought about everything you asked in the period of about 3 months after I discovered my bat was corked. Now that almost three years has passed, I can answer with a much more constructive answer.

First off, I think Pete, possessing the wreckless personality he has, probably felt that the guys he gave these bats to were "safe". I mean, I'm fairly sure he didn't just hand them out to anyone who asked. He probably felt giving one to Bobby Wine, the interim manager of the Braves in last September just after he broke Ty Cobb's record was a safe bet. After all, what would his old coach do, give it away? Hell no.

But much to Pete's dismay, he did apparently sell it. And if he didn't sell it, he must have given it away to someone who did. So Pete made an error in judgement.

I'm sure Bill could lay the same kind of story on you all about his bat. As I recall, the bat has a very detailed trail of limited ownership, given by Pete to it's first owner, then ownership eventually transfering ONCE to Steve Wolter. So that would tell me the original person Pete gave this (now photo-matched) bat to was a close friend or family member. Maybe he just felt it would never be discovered, and even if it was, he could then joke about it with them? I know that's a stretch, but it's a bit more reasonable than just letting your corked bats out there.

But it appears that's exactly what happened. You have to remember, 25 years ago, these items didn't hold the value they do today. When the value of these game used items started to rise exponentially, these little gems he may have felt he placed in "safe" hands started to enter the public auctions. After all, they didn't know the bats were corked, and it took over 20 years of natural aging for the plug in the end of mine to show (a little evaporation of the moisture in the wood and painted over plug now shows the circular separation). A guy who has no experience of what happens with plugged bats after 20-25 years may have felt no one would EVER know. I mean, I'm SURE Pete assumed the folks he gave these bats to wouldn't be out in the backyard hitting grounders to the neighborhood kids with one of his gift gamers, right?

Who know's, it is a very interesting question, all speculation, and one that still baffles me.

As far as the values, I would guess that there are a limited amount of these "corked" bats around. The simple laws of "supply and demand" would state that they should be worth a bit more than a standard rose gamer. How much more? That would depend on how much a collector would be willing to dole out at any given moment in time to own one of these fairly cool pieces of history....pretty much like any other rare piece in our hobby. I know that as a collector of Pete Rose memorabilia, because he was one of the greatest players the game has ever known, I am much happier knowing I own a rare piece of interesting history than just a standard Rose gamer. But make no mistake, they are all fine pieces of history. No matter what happens to Rose in the fait of eventually (or not) being elected into the Hall of Fame....he is, without question, worthy of the status based on his on-field achievements no matter what any of us think about the guy as a member of society off the field.

[spartakid]

Re: Photo matched PR4192 Rose bat with surprise!!!!

Well put Steve. These bats are older than I am, so I never got to see Pete play, but hearing about him, I'm guessing that he wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer and you're right, he just GOT a bit careless and let them out. I have seen studies on the corked bat idea and I remember hearing that a ball hit on the screws with homerun distance would only gain five to ten feet on average distance. Definitely better to find out that some corked instead of juiced...

[Rich Ellis]

Re: Photo matched PR4192 Rose bat with surprise!!!!

Corked bat myth - When I am not authenticating jerseys or selling them I am bat rep for MaxBats and have been now for 2.5 years. We have over 700 professional ball players using our bats and we make over 200 models.

With that said I discussed at length about a year ago about corked bats and if there was any advantage in using them. We concluded that once someone drills into the bat and takes mass out of the bat you are weakening the bat overall. Hence the ball will not travel as far corked compared to a normal bat. The more mass/density behind the swing coming through the hitting zone will result in balls that go further. We always recommend to the younger ball players to swing as heavy a bat as they can for this very reason.

Once you start getting past that minus 2 differential of weight to length, a bat manufacturer must dry out the bat, again making the bat weaker. Its really about moisture content in the bat that gives the bats it's weight and its strength also in accordance to the number of grain lines in the bat, even though not totally proven about grain lines. But some major league ball players want less grain lines.

Corking does one thing for the hitter it makes the bat lighter which would let the hitter get through the zone quicker and that's it.

I do understand why Rose would clean his bats after games, it makes perfect sense in what he explains. We see a lot of major league ball players look at their bats and see where they are making contact. Some ball players also liked their bats unfinished so they can bone the bat. Which is actually compressing about 1/16" of the bat surface, making the surface harder and less susceptible to surface damage hence baseball lace impressions left on the bat.

This is a very cool story and bat.

[carct]

Re: Photo matched PR4192 Rose bat with surprise!!!!

From Mythbusters website

http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/mythbusters/db/sports/corked-bat-makes-baseball-fly-farther.html