Hines Ward Game Cut/Game Worn in Vintage Authentics

[JimCaravello]

Re: Hines Ward Game Cut/Game Worn in Vintage Authentics

CollectGU - I read those posts on the MEARS site. I was suprised to never see any finality to those threads. I didn't realize that you were CollectGU on the Forum. You bring up a great point......Jim

[trsent]

Re: Hines Ward Game Cut/Game Worn in Vintage Authentics

What happened exactly on the forum?

I know Dave is very anal about attaching your name (and email address?) to every post. Please elaborate.

[jboosted92]

Re: Hines Ward Game Cut/Game Worn in Vintage Authentics

Just my two cents on this thread which I have been following closely.............

First off - Rudy - EXTREMELY happy to have you back and I agree 100% with your comments...............

Secondly - this thread validates why GUU is so great for the collector. It will help prevent people from making $100 and $1000 mistakes........

Relative to authenticators, last year I purchased a few items in auction and two of them I still laugh at what occured relative to the COAs. The first item was my 1986 Dave Righetti Game Worn Road jersey authenticated by MEARS with an A-10 Grade. The jersey was missing an armband and had team altered stitching on the buttons. Neither of these items was mentioned by MEARS. When I pointed this out to Dave Grob, they acknowledeged they made a mistake and regraded the jersey an A9 ( they never sent another COA ) and they sent me 10% of the purchase price back. How does MEARS - the supposed leader in the hobby not see an armband missing on a 1986 Yankees jersey? What about the team altered stitching on the buttons? This was mind boggling to me. I can't agree with Rudy's comments more - they missgrade a 1986 Yankees jersey but yet they can grade all sports from all eras?

The second item I won in auction last year that I continue to laugh at is my Ernie Banks 1950's Game Used Bat that comes with a COA from PSA ( auto guys and not the bat guys ) authenticating the autograph on my bat. Folks - the bat is not autographed and the COA is clearly printed for my bat. What a travesty!

Before these events, I never relied on COAs which is my Third Point - Do your own homework! Make yourself an expert! I have learned so much by participating in this Forum and GUU and I NEVER RELY ON OTHER COAS - this goes for both jerseys and bats that I purchase. If you have concerns, pass on these A5 jerseys - in my opinion half of them are not legitimate. I had a conversation recently with a good friend and we were discussing game used football jerseys and we discussed how 90% of them looked like they came off the rack with tags and had no use! Yet - these jersey are graded and authenticated as game used.

In my opinion, one of the problems with MEARS is that they are assigning grades for items which should not be graded at all. For instance - a team index bat should not be graded A7, or A8 or whatever grade they want to give it because it will confuse the novice collector when you compare that grade to a legitimate factory documented player bat that has the same grade. People have spent thousands on team index bats that were used by John Doe instead of Clemente, Mathews, etc. I am firm in my conviction on this. I think they are misleading the collector. The problem with MEARS is that they are too liberal in their grading. Sorry Troy and Dave - but you are. Do you have to grade everything that comes across your desk and assign it a grade? Are we not trying to authenticate an item as being a game used item? If its borderline, can we just pass on it and not call it A5 or A4?

Here is a great example for all to examine. The following link is from Vintage Authentics current auction for a Yaz bat:

http://vintageauthentics.at.truition.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=71673254&prmenbr=57735959&aunbr=72019964

This bat has been graded A6 by MEARS. Here is the description by Vintage:

Description:

Blonde Louisville Slugger C271 signature model bat used by Hall of Fame Triple Crown winner Carl Yastrzemski during his 1983 final MLB season. The bat measures 31.2 oz and 34 3/8" exhibiting light game use with light ball marks and surface stitch marks with an uncracked handle. The bat's knob has been markered with Yaz's #8 in black. The bat earns a final grade of 6.

In reading this, you assume that the bat was used by Yaz in 1983 and has light use and was graded A6 because it matches factory records and has light use. The bat has a standard finish per the MEARS Letter of Opinion. The MEARS Letter of Opinion goes on to say:

Matches Factory Records: Yes - Baseball Promotions
Bat Used During: Regular Season
Finish: Standard ( wording below says natural )

In the comments section of the MEARS COA they indicate that "Louisville Slugger factory records show that all of the small grain 34 1/2" C271 model bats in natural finish were shpped to Baseball Promotions in 1983-1984, not sent to Yaz or the Red Sox". They also say that the bat is a professional signature model, use and manufacturer characteristics cannot be attributed to Yaz.

Let's look at some facts:

• Yaz's last year was 1983
• This bat is probably from 84 or 85 ( 83 and 84 was a crossover labeling period ) - could be from 1983, but I highly doubt it
• The bat clearly does not match anything that Yaz or the Red Sox ordered and even MEARS acknowledges this
• Yaz ordered only WIDE GRAIN C271 bats in 1983 with Natural Finish ( he also ordered C271 Hickory Models )
• The MEARS COA clearly says this bat was used during the regular season
• The COA is in conflict with itself

Now - the question is, how can you give this bat an A6 grade and also grade a legitimate Yaz bat from any year with light use an A6? Someone will be buying nothing more than a promotional signed bat and both Vintage Authentics ( with their description in the auction ) and MEARS ( with their A6 grade ) are misleading the collector - both too liberal in my opinion............YAZ HAD ONLY ONE SHIPMENT OF BLONDE C271 BATS IN 1983 - 12 pieces on AUGUST 12th - WIDE GRAIN NATURAL FINISH BATS - Dave and Troy - why did you even grade this bat????????????????? The bat in auction does not match what he ordered his last year in 1983?! In my opinion, he never used this bat in a game.........

Back to my third point - do your own homework. Don't rely on anyone but yourself. If you have any question on an item - ask around and get some answers and if you are still not satisfied - pass on it. I personally am tired of MEARS beating their chest on how great they are and yet they continue to grade things incorrectly or too liberally ( as is the case with the Yaz bat above )............

Jim

Now Jim, you are part of GUU self titled "Expert's Corner". Now, I am an Expert in Microsoft Networking, and like most Experts they are professionals in that field.

How come you dont Expertise professionally?

When someone asks me about there Microsoft problem, i give my OPINION on best practice. They dont have to take it. point is, they dont have to buy Microsoft in the first place.

Armband?? Cmon.. 1st rule of business... promote your own, b4 you knock the competition...

But if you are not a deemed "Professional", What can you promote? your Expertise? Well contact Vintage Authentics, MastroNet, Lelands, and any other auction house, and ask them to write in job description:

If you would like an additional opinion on this item, email Jim C for an "Experts" Opinion.

See if that weight carries....

[sportscentury]

Re: Hines Ward Game Cut/Game Worn in Vintage Authentics

Now Jim, you are part of GUU self titled "Expert's Corner". Now, I am an Expert in Microsoft Networking, and like most Experts they are professionals in that field.

How come you dont Expertise professionally?

When someone asks me about there Microsoft problem, i give my OPINION on best practice. They dont have to take it. point is, they dont have to buy Microsoft in the first place.

Armband?? Cmon.. 1st rule of business... promote your own, b4 you knock the competition...

But if you are not a deemed "Professional", What can you promote? your Expertise? Well contact Vintage Authentics, MastroNet, Lelands, and any other auction house, and ask them to write in job description:

If you would like an additional opinion on this item, email Jim C for an "Experts" Opinion.

See if that weight carries....

Huh?

[jboosted92]

Re: Hines Ward Game Cut/Game Worn in Vintage Authentics

Huh?

No need to say Huh? read it again. It obviously shows me making the point of saying if you dont like it.....Do it yourself...... and worry less about what others are doing. It you feel its flawed, invent a system of your own and implement it.

If I b*tched that Honda had crappy Variable Valve timing configurations within there VTEC system, they would say to me "dont use it, and try to make your own"

So AGAIN... If you dont like it, Create your own...

[kingjammy24]

Re: Hines Ward Game Cut/Game Worn in Vintage Authentics

howard,

the ebay mcgwire is not the one i was referring too. my goodness the ebay one has a lot of pine tar on the shoulder. having seen many mcgwires', do they usually have pine tar on the right shoulder? the tag on that one is interesting. at any rate, here is the '96 mcgwire i was referring to:



funny. the 2 of them have different versions of russell tags. oh well!

rudy.

[CollectGU]

Re: Hines Ward Game Cut/Game Worn in Vintage Authentics

What happened exactly on the forum?

I know Dave is very anal about attaching your name (and email address?) to every post. Please elaborate.

I began the thread and was only Dave posting in the tread and the only one responding, BUT each time I wrote a reply, I either gave my first name and e-mail but no last name, by First and last name but no-e-mail, my-e-mail but no name, my first name, last name, AND phone number, but no e-mail...etc...ad nauseum...It's my fault for not following the "rules" but read the posts in their totality and you'll catch a "vibe"

[JimCaravello]

Re: Hines Ward Game Cut/Game Worn in Vintage Authentics

JBoosted

I guess I am missing something with your comment and am really surprised to see how many people do not really care about this topic and are just willing to give these guys a free pass all the time..........and yes - an armband missing - that's a huge item to miss when examining a jersey......

[CollectGU]

Re: Hines Ward Game Cut/Game Worn in Vintage Authentics

Jim,

From Dave's response on MEARS he feels like we, or at least I am trying to bring MEARS down which is not my intent..I wanted answers which I felt I didn't get and they felt they provided sufficient answers...Oh well..I'm done with the Berra mask issue...

[jboosted92]

Re: Hines Ward Game Cut/Game Worn in Vintage Authentics

JBoosted

I guess I am missing something with your comment and am really surprised to see how many people do not really care about this topic and are just willing to give these guys a free pass all the time..........and yes - an armband missing - that's a huge item to miss when examining a jersey......

Free Pass All the time? How many free passes? what else is wrong? Your talking about 1000s and 1000s of items...

I think your just more upset with the grading scale, then the once in awhile "mistake". I think most buyers are willing to forgo a mistake made, as long as they agree or understand the process itself. Just like the A5 thing.

I think the number system is weighted to much. What A5 means in regards to the particular item is more important than the number "5"...

I know A4 and A6 items that might be better than an A8 item. Its more in the description...

Plus thats why theres GAI, PSADNA, MEARS, LL...

You want a different opinion, then get one with the item, or dont buy it..if you disagree with the authethicators

[JimCaravello]

Re: Hines Ward Game Cut/Game Worn in Vintage Authentics

CollectGu

After reading your post, I saw the comments on MEARS. My intent is also not to bring MEARS down - my intent is to help collectors understand the nuances of COAs in the market and to discuss issues and discrepancies that I have seen in the past.

As I indicated in a previous post, the guys at MEARS are very knowledgeable and they have helped advance the hobby. If they feel like I am throwing stones, then they can feel that way. I can't change that. No one is perfect and mistakes are going to be made, but in my opinion, I really feel that MEARS needs to look at some of their SOPS relative to authentication. Once again - in my opinion, the Yaz bat is a perfect example of a flaw in their system.

I would like someone to tell me what I am missing with the Yaz bat and why that bat should be graded A6. I am all ears and I will be the first to apologize and say I was wrong if someone, including MEARS can tell me how a bat with the facts I have presented earns an A6 grade and can be equally compared to a factory documented, lightly used Yaz bat that would grade and earn an A6 grade.

Yaz retired at the end of the 1983 season and ( 1 ) if use characteristics can not be attributed to Yaz, ( 2 ) and the bat has a standard finish ( he only ordered Natural finish bats in one order in 1983, so the bat does not match anything that Yaz ordered in 1983 and MEARS acknowledges this ), ( 3 ) and they say the bat was used in the Regular Season ( after saying that use characteristics can not be attributed to Yaz, which is the conflict of COA issue mentioned ) - how does this bat grade A6? My point is if what they acknowledge in the COA is correct, then the bat is from 1984 or 1985 and should not receive an A6 grade and it should not be listed by Vintage Authentics as a 1983 bat used by Yaz in his last year?? It is nothing more than a promotional ordered bat.

Jim

[JimCaravello]

Re: Hines Ward Game Cut/Game Worn in Vintage Authentics

As an addendum to the last post, I wanted to provide everyone the criteria for an A6 grade on the Mears site........

A6 and A7 - Authenticated Bat with Evaluated Use and Noted Player Characteristics

"Factory production details of the bat have been compared to known records and have been determined to match recorded length ( +/- 1 to 4 ounces ), model, and correspond with proper labeling period from point in examined players career" Bat does not match anything Yaz or the Red Sox ordered in 1983 ( examined players career ) and MEARS acknowledges this in the COA.

"Use characteristics & player traits have been examined and player use has been found to be light or medium. Player traits may be present but no additional points are awarded" Mears acknowledges in the COA that "use and manufacturer characteristics can not be attributed to Yaz"

So - once again, why is this bat even graded in the first place?

Jim

[trsent]

Re: Hines Ward Game Cut/Game Worn in Vintage Authentics

As an addendum to the last post, I wanted to provide everyone the criteria for an A6 grade on the Mears site........

A6 and A7 - Authenticated Bat with Evaluated Use and Noted Player Characteristics

"Factory production details of the bat have been compared to known records and have been determined to match recorded length ( +/- 1 to 4 ounces ), model, and correspond with proper labeling period from point in examined players career" Bat does not match anything Yaz or the Red Sox ordered in 1983 ( examined players career ) and MEARS acknowledges this in the COA.

"Use characteristics & player traits have been examined and player use has been found to be light or medium. Player traits may be present but no additional points are awarded" Mears acknowledges in the COA that "use and manufacturer characteristics can not be attributed to Yaz"

So - once again, why is this bat even graded in the first place?

Jim

Jim, forgive me if I missed something, but what was MEARS response to your last question: "So - once again, why is this bat even graded in the first place?"

[JimCaravello]

Re: Hines Ward Game Cut/Game Worn in Vintage Authentics

Joel - they have seen my questions on the Yaz by virtue of their posts yesterday and their comments on items in my original posts and I have not heard back from them with my concerns

JBoosted - your last thead is right on - the grading scale is one of my primary concerns and the logic behind it does not make any sense. It is clear that this Yaz bat is a promotional bat that does not match anything he ordered in 1983. The A6 grade is misleading to the collecting community. The COA does state Professional Model Bat - Baseball Promotions at the top ( which I am sure MEARS if they respond, will say that under their grading criteria, they have every right to assign an A6 grade to this bat ) - but this bat can not be compared equally to a legitimate A6 Yaz bat that matches factory records. In addition, Vintage Authentics in their auction description clearly state that this is a bat that Yaz used in 1983, which is incorrect and they along with the MEARS COA are misleading the collector. This Yaz bat and the A6 grade are similar to my concerns over MEARS grading Team Index bats in the past with A6, A7, etc. grades that have been marketed by auction companies as game used bats by the player - when in fact, they are nothing more than team indexed bat or bats ordered by other players and not used by the player whose name appears on the barrel..... a previous thread on this topic is listed below

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=2114&highlight=index+bats

The Yaz bat is currently at $372 before the hammer ( with a few more days to go ) which is a complete travesty for a bat that Yaz only touched when he signed it.

Jim

[trsent]

Re: Hines Ward Game Cut/Game Worn in Vintage Authentics

My question was did you email MEARS or only assume they saw your post on this forum?