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Re: Authentication Issues - Help Needed
I have been following this thread since it was originally posted, and have also followed the corresponding thread on the MEARS website. In my opinion, in reviewing all of the information (both relevant and irrelevant) and opinions presented to date, there is one glating omission: the complete, specific, documented H & B factory records for Tris Speaker himself.
First, a little background. As you are aware from previous posts in this thread, in May, 2006 this bat was referred to Global Authentication by Michael Rose, whom I had never met, to provide authentication services. In addition to providing personal authentication services, I also contract my services to Global Authentication in the area of professional model game used bats, and I was the direct recipient of this bat, mailed directly from John Taube following his examination and subsequent Letter of Opinion on the bat. At that time there had been several opinions and authentication services performed on this bat. I was, at the time, in possession of a variety of information put forth by several people, including people that clearly have significant expertise in the professional model game used bat arena, such as Dave Bushing and John Taube, as well as input from Dave Grob and Troy Kinunen. I had been aquainted with all of those people at various times over the past 30-plus years, with the exception of Troy Kinumen, through the purchase, sales, and authentication of professional bats, and regard each as someone I could pick up the phone and call at any time.
Second, a word about professional model bat authenticators. As I have detailed in previous blog postings on the GUU site, bat authenticators did not really exist until the mid-to-late 1990's when a significant amount of factory records were released by H & B largely through the efforts of Vince Malta and Bill Riddell. Over the next few years, the available information from H & B expanded, but was basically in the hands of a very few people. Thus, the professional model bat authenticator was born...a person who had access to information and records that 99% of collectors did not have. Since that time, a significant amount of research has taken place and alot of information has been freely given out through this website and others.
Here is the basic question -- if the 'professional' authenticators all have basically the same information by this time, what is the difference between them? Why would there be any disagreement at all between them? It comes down to this: existing factory records are, during different eras, less complete than others, and the documentation is, at times, open to interpretation. Throughout the records here are references made, notations scratched, and directions given that have seemingly no additional reference points. There are sometimes found to be errors in annotating a year or in filling in shipping records out of sequence. There is no exact science to this, and that is one of the main reasons H & B was reluctant to allow wholesale distribution of the factory records. In their words, "We're in the business of making bats, and never intended these records for collector use."
An authenticator has no more ability to logically make sense out of a series of records as does anyone else, provided all have the same information. True, a person who has handled, say, 50 game used professional model Willie Mccovey bats may have more insight into McCovey personal use characteristics than someone who hasn't,but, basically, the records speak for themselves. The differences in authenticators lies in their liberal or conservative interpretation of documented records, and their ability to reach logical, reasonable conclusions based on those documents.
That leads us to the Tris Speaker bat in question.
Here are the three objective facts known about this bat: 1) The bat has H & B professional model labeling consistent with the 1917-1921 labeling period;. 2) The bat is 32.25 inches in length; 3) the bat weighs between 32 and 33 ounces.
That is it. All else is subjective opinion.
Given that, let's look at the authentication process.
First, the labeling identifies this as a professional model. There is disagreement whether the bat is made of professional quality wood, but that is somewhat subjective and the opinion based on years of handling bats from the period. I opine in the Letter of Opinion I prepared for Global Authentication that the bat appears to be a professional model bat of the period.
Second, the length of this bat is 32.25 " by John Taube's and the current owner's measurements. I measured the bat at between 32.25 inches and 32.37 inches. Dave Bushing has it at 32.5 inches in the MEARS Letter of Opinion dated 8/11/05.
Third, the weight of this bat is, as weighed by all parties, "a little over 32 ounces".
With this objective information in hand, what references are found in Tris Speaker's factory records? Below is a listing of all orders that are known to exist for Tris Speaker. Any added notations are referenced from additional factory records as indicated:
TRIS SPEAKER
9/15/20; His Model / 40 oz. NOTE: Old Tris Speaker diagram at 35"
6/18/21: Tris Speaker / 40 & 41 ounces NOTE: 35" diagram as above
6/3/22 Cleveland BBC Model sent in for Speaker / 39 oz. NOTE: unknown length
4/27/23 His Cleveland BBC 6-3-22 / 39-40 oz NOTE: unknown length as above
7/18/23: Sheeley Model 36" Use large Sisler-Cuban / 40 oz NOTE: diagrammed at 36"
8/21/23: Earl Sheeley Auto on End Cuban Wood Model sent in / 40-41 oz NOTE: unknown length
4/15/25: His 8-21-23 / 38-40 oz NOTE: This Speaker model is not diagrammed in H & B
records and is of unknown length
5/6/25: His 8-21-23 / 38-40 oz NOTE: unknown length as above
5/14/25:His 8-21-23/ 35 ounces NOTE: unknown length as above
6/6/25: His 8-21-23 Cuban Wood Model/ 38-39 oz. NOTE: unknown length as above
2/20/26: His 8-21-23 Cuban wood/ 37 oz NOTE: unknown length as above
4/7/26: His 8-21-23 Cuban wood/ 37 oz NOTE: unknown length as above
4/15/26: His 8-21-23 Cuban Wood/ 37 ounces: NOTE: unknown length as above
6/11/26: His Old Speaker/ 37 oz NOTE: diagrammed at 35"
5/14/27 Hornsby/ 38-40 oz NOTE: only two Hornsby model bats are known diagrammed, both at 35"
6/16/27: Hornsby/ 38-40 oz NOTE as above 35"
7/9/27 : HornsbyAuto on End, Model sent in: / 38 oz NOTE: as above, 35"
3/12/28: His 7-9-27/ 38 ounces NOTE: as above, 35"
4/5/28: Hornsby/ 38-39 oz. NOTE as above, 35 "
7/27/28: His Auto on end Model sent in/ 37 oz NOTE: unknown length
5/2/29: Jimmy (sic) Foxx 2-21-28/ 36 to 38 oz NOTE diagram at 35"
8/10/29 Jimmy (sic) Foxx 2-21-28/ 37 oz NOTE diagram at 35"
1930: His Jimmie Foxx 2-21-28/ 36 & 38 oz NOTE: diagram at 35"
1933: His 7-27-28/ 37 oz NOTE: unknown length
There are three diagrammed bats in Speaker's records. These bats were used as indexed bats and generally came with a specified length. In other words, if you ordered a Jimmie Foxx model 22-21-28 it would automatically come to you in its indexed length of 35" unless you specified a different length, and the variation would be the weight ordered. The three diagrammed Speaker bats are the Old Tris Speaker diagrammed at 35". the Jimmie Foxx 2-21-28 model diagrammed at 35", and a Paul Waner model. The Waner model is not specified, but in Waner's index there are eleven diagrammed bats as his index bats, four of which likely overlap Speaker's playing career as follows: His (Waner's) 6-22-27 diagrammed at 34", Old Tim Hendrix diagrammed at 35.75", Large Sisler diagrammed at 36", and Hornsby diagrammed at 35-36". It is unknown which of these bats is referenced specifically.
So what does this all mean? Well, out of 24 specific documented orders, length is referenced on 7 of them (12 if you include the orders of Hornsby models that likely are 35" in length), and all seven documented re3ferences are 35 or 36 inches in length. . The length of this bat, 32.25 inches, is so dramatically uncharacteristic of Speaker's KNOWN existing records, that it is extremely unlikely that it was manufactures for Speaker's professional use. When the weight is factored into the equation, this bat is between 7.4 ounces and 8.4 ounces lighter than any order documented within the bat's labeling period.
You be the authenticator, as now you have all the existing documented information on Tris Speaker's personal H & B factory records. Is this bat a professional model bat? With the proper labeling intact, I agreed that it appears to be a professional model bat. That is in agreement with a recent Dave Bushing post on the topic, and John Taube's email to MEARS and Vintage Authentics dated 7/7/06 in which he states " we would grade the bat as a pro model Speaker with no reference to use by the player."
And that's the heart of the matter. Unfortunately, with the grading system in use by MEARS, an A7 grade implies , to the average collector, that there is a strong liklihood that the bat was used by the specific player named in a professional game. That is not the case, in my opinion, with this bat, The dimensions of this bat are so dramatically uncharacteristic of Speaker's documented ordering patterns, both in length and weight, that it is impossible to authenticate this bat as manufactured for the professional use of Tris Speaker. That is also the opinion of John Taube, who, in the referenced email, indicated that he would likely grade the bat between a 3 and 4 depending on use and condition, as "the light weight removes this bat from any of the bats ordered by Speaker during the referenced labeling period, "
OK, thats it for documented records, what about other considerations? Dave Bushing is in possession of a 34.75 inch lathe bat with side-writing that indicates "Speaker ______ 24. make 33" K48L" In a recent post Dave offered that I stated that "a model designation means a player who retired in 1928 could not have used such a bat." That is a misreprentation of my comments. Model numbers were assigned to bats earlier than when they were first stamped on the bats themselves. However, the reference to Model K48 L would not be relevant to the period of the subject bat (1917-1921) as this model was first made for Red Kress whose career spanned from 1927 to 1946. There is a model number on the end of the 34.5" lathe bat that is filled withwhite paint, S194. According to Dave, Model S194 became model K48L.. However this , too, would have occurred sometime after 1927 and could have occurred 10 or 15 years later.
To follow such reasoning, you would have to believe that it is likely, or probable, that a bat modeled for Speaker sometime during his playing career (possibly 1924 based on the side-writing) and eventually referenced as S194, then re-referenced as model K48L (at the earliest in 1927 and possibly not until the early 1940's) is, in some manner, tangible evidence that Tris Speaker used a 32.25" bat during the period 1917-1921. Isn't it just as likely, probably more so, that the 34.75" lathe bat, reasonably consistent with Speaker's ordering pattern, was vaulted and subsequently, when Red Kress ordered the model sometime during his playing career, he tweaked it a bit and it became "His Speaker __/__/24 , and eventually redesignated K48L ? In my opinion, and the opinion of others I that the writing "make 33" K48L" has alot to do with Red Kress and very little to do with Tris Speaker.
Neither I, nor Dave, nor John, nor Troy, nor Vince knows for certain the meaning of this bat, just as noone knows the absolute, 100% accurate records of every model bat used by every Major League player during any player's career. The most we can do is review the records as they exist, make as informed and logical assumption as possible, and present that to any potential buyer as an opinion. It is difficult for me to reasonably suggest that the 34.75" lathe bat, with a notation that is not definitive,can negate the existing factory records and be used to definitively place the bat in Tris Speaker's hands during his playing career,
which I believe a grade of A7 certainly does. This bat does not match existing, documented factory records of the 1917-1921 labeling period, or the remainder of Speaker's playing career (1922-1928) or Speaker's post career.
Mike Jackitout7@aol.com
I have been following this thread since it was originally posted, and have also followed the corresponding thread on the MEARS website. In my opinion, in reviewing all of the information (both relevant and irrelevant) and opinions presented to date, there is one glating omission: the complete, specific, documented H & B factory records for Tris Speaker himself.
First, a little background. As you are aware from previous posts in this thread, in May, 2006 this bat was referred to Global Authentication by Michael Rose, whom I had never met, to provide authentication services. In addition to providing personal authentication services, I also contract my services to Global Authentication in the area of professional model game used bats, and I was the direct recipient of this bat, mailed directly from John Taube following his examination and subsequent Letter of Opinion on the bat. At that time there had been several opinions and authentication services performed on this bat. I was, at the time, in possession of a variety of information put forth by several people, including people that clearly have significant expertise in the professional model game used bat arena, such as Dave Bushing and John Taube, as well as input from Dave Grob and Troy Kinunen. I had been aquainted with all of those people at various times over the past 30-plus years, with the exception of Troy Kinumen, through the purchase, sales, and authentication of professional bats, and regard each as someone I could pick up the phone and call at any time.
Second, a word about professional model bat authenticators. As I have detailed in previous blog postings on the GUU site, bat authenticators did not really exist until the mid-to-late 1990's when a significant amount of factory records were released by H & B largely through the efforts of Vince Malta and Bill Riddell. Over the next few years, the available information from H & B expanded, but was basically in the hands of a very few people. Thus, the professional model bat authenticator was born...a person who had access to information and records that 99% of collectors did not have. Since that time, a significant amount of research has taken place and alot of information has been freely given out through this website and others.
Here is the basic question -- if the 'professional' authenticators all have basically the same information by this time, what is the difference between them? Why would there be any disagreement at all between them? It comes down to this: existing factory records are, during different eras, less complete than others, and the documentation is, at times, open to interpretation. Throughout the records here are references made, notations scratched, and directions given that have seemingly no additional reference points. There are sometimes found to be errors in annotating a year or in filling in shipping records out of sequence. There is no exact science to this, and that is one of the main reasons H & B was reluctant to allow wholesale distribution of the factory records. In their words, "We're in the business of making bats, and never intended these records for collector use."
An authenticator has no more ability to logically make sense out of a series of records as does anyone else, provided all have the same information. True, a person who has handled, say, 50 game used professional model Willie Mccovey bats may have more insight into McCovey personal use characteristics than someone who hasn't,but, basically, the records speak for themselves. The differences in authenticators lies in their liberal or conservative interpretation of documented records, and their ability to reach logical, reasonable conclusions based on those documents.
That leads us to the Tris Speaker bat in question.
Here are the three objective facts known about this bat: 1) The bat has H & B professional model labeling consistent with the 1917-1921 labeling period;. 2) The bat is 32.25 inches in length; 3) the bat weighs between 32 and 33 ounces.
That is it. All else is subjective opinion.
Given that, let's look at the authentication process.
First, the labeling identifies this as a professional model. There is disagreement whether the bat is made of professional quality wood, but that is somewhat subjective and the opinion based on years of handling bats from the period. I opine in the Letter of Opinion I prepared for Global Authentication that the bat appears to be a professional model bat of the period.
Second, the length of this bat is 32.25 " by John Taube's and the current owner's measurements. I measured the bat at between 32.25 inches and 32.37 inches. Dave Bushing has it at 32.5 inches in the MEARS Letter of Opinion dated 8/11/05.
Third, the weight of this bat is, as weighed by all parties, "a little over 32 ounces".
With this objective information in hand, what references are found in Tris Speaker's factory records? Below is a listing of all orders that are known to exist for Tris Speaker. Any added notations are referenced from additional factory records as indicated:
TRIS SPEAKER
9/15/20; His Model / 40 oz. NOTE: Old Tris Speaker diagram at 35"
6/18/21: Tris Speaker / 40 & 41 ounces NOTE: 35" diagram as above
6/3/22 Cleveland BBC Model sent in for Speaker / 39 oz. NOTE: unknown length
4/27/23 His Cleveland BBC 6-3-22 / 39-40 oz NOTE: unknown length as above
7/18/23: Sheeley Model 36" Use large Sisler-Cuban / 40 oz NOTE: diagrammed at 36"
8/21/23: Earl Sheeley Auto on End Cuban Wood Model sent in / 40-41 oz NOTE: unknown length
4/15/25: His 8-21-23 / 38-40 oz NOTE: This Speaker model is not diagrammed in H & B
records and is of unknown length
5/6/25: His 8-21-23 / 38-40 oz NOTE: unknown length as above
5/14/25:His 8-21-23/ 35 ounces NOTE: unknown length as above
6/6/25: His 8-21-23 Cuban Wood Model/ 38-39 oz. NOTE: unknown length as above
2/20/26: His 8-21-23 Cuban wood/ 37 oz NOTE: unknown length as above
4/7/26: His 8-21-23 Cuban wood/ 37 oz NOTE: unknown length as above
4/15/26: His 8-21-23 Cuban Wood/ 37 ounces: NOTE: unknown length as above
6/11/26: His Old Speaker/ 37 oz NOTE: diagrammed at 35"
5/14/27 Hornsby/ 38-40 oz NOTE: only two Hornsby model bats are known diagrammed, both at 35"
6/16/27: Hornsby/ 38-40 oz NOTE as above 35"
7/9/27 : HornsbyAuto on End, Model sent in: / 38 oz NOTE: as above, 35"
3/12/28: His 7-9-27/ 38 ounces NOTE: as above, 35"
4/5/28: Hornsby/ 38-39 oz. NOTE as above, 35 "
7/27/28: His Auto on end Model sent in/ 37 oz NOTE: unknown length
5/2/29: Jimmy (sic) Foxx 2-21-28/ 36 to 38 oz NOTE diagram at 35"
8/10/29 Jimmy (sic) Foxx 2-21-28/ 37 oz NOTE diagram at 35"
1930: His Jimmie Foxx 2-21-28/ 36 & 38 oz NOTE: diagram at 35"
1933: His 7-27-28/ 37 oz NOTE: unknown length
There are three diagrammed bats in Speaker's records. These bats were used as indexed bats and generally came with a specified length. In other words, if you ordered a Jimmie Foxx model 22-21-28 it would automatically come to you in its indexed length of 35" unless you specified a different length, and the variation would be the weight ordered. The three diagrammed Speaker bats are the Old Tris Speaker diagrammed at 35". the Jimmie Foxx 2-21-28 model diagrammed at 35", and a Paul Waner model. The Waner model is not specified, but in Waner's index there are eleven diagrammed bats as his index bats, four of which likely overlap Speaker's playing career as follows: His (Waner's) 6-22-27 diagrammed at 34", Old Tim Hendrix diagrammed at 35.75", Large Sisler diagrammed at 36", and Hornsby diagrammed at 35-36". It is unknown which of these bats is referenced specifically.
So what does this all mean? Well, out of 24 specific documented orders, length is referenced on 7 of them (12 if you include the orders of Hornsby models that likely are 35" in length), and all seven documented re3ferences are 35 or 36 inches in length. . The length of this bat, 32.25 inches, is so dramatically uncharacteristic of Speaker's KNOWN existing records, that it is extremely unlikely that it was manufactures for Speaker's professional use. When the weight is factored into the equation, this bat is between 7.4 ounces and 8.4 ounces lighter than any order documented within the bat's labeling period.
You be the authenticator, as now you have all the existing documented information on Tris Speaker's personal H & B factory records. Is this bat a professional model bat? With the proper labeling intact, I agreed that it appears to be a professional model bat. That is in agreement with a recent Dave Bushing post on the topic, and John Taube's email to MEARS and Vintage Authentics dated 7/7/06 in which he states " we would grade the bat as a pro model Speaker with no reference to use by the player."
And that's the heart of the matter. Unfortunately, with the grading system in use by MEARS, an A7 grade implies , to the average collector, that there is a strong liklihood that the bat was used by the specific player named in a professional game. That is not the case, in my opinion, with this bat, The dimensions of this bat are so dramatically uncharacteristic of Speaker's documented ordering patterns, both in length and weight, that it is impossible to authenticate this bat as manufactured for the professional use of Tris Speaker. That is also the opinion of John Taube, who, in the referenced email, indicated that he would likely grade the bat between a 3 and 4 depending on use and condition, as "the light weight removes this bat from any of the bats ordered by Speaker during the referenced labeling period, "
OK, thats it for documented records, what about other considerations? Dave Bushing is in possession of a 34.75 inch lathe bat with side-writing that indicates "Speaker ______ 24. make 33" K48L" In a recent post Dave offered that I stated that "a model designation means a player who retired in 1928 could not have used such a bat." That is a misreprentation of my comments. Model numbers were assigned to bats earlier than when they were first stamped on the bats themselves. However, the reference to Model K48 L would not be relevant to the period of the subject bat (1917-1921) as this model was first made for Red Kress whose career spanned from 1927 to 1946. There is a model number on the end of the 34.5" lathe bat that is filled withwhite paint, S194. According to Dave, Model S194 became model K48L.. However this , too, would have occurred sometime after 1927 and could have occurred 10 or 15 years later.
To follow such reasoning, you would have to believe that it is likely, or probable, that a bat modeled for Speaker sometime during his playing career (possibly 1924 based on the side-writing) and eventually referenced as S194, then re-referenced as model K48L (at the earliest in 1927 and possibly not until the early 1940's) is, in some manner, tangible evidence that Tris Speaker used a 32.25" bat during the period 1917-1921. Isn't it just as likely, probably more so, that the 34.75" lathe bat, reasonably consistent with Speaker's ordering pattern, was vaulted and subsequently, when Red Kress ordered the model sometime during his playing career, he tweaked it a bit and it became "His Speaker __/__/24 , and eventually redesignated K48L ? In my opinion, and the opinion of others I that the writing "make 33" K48L" has alot to do with Red Kress and very little to do with Tris Speaker.
Neither I, nor Dave, nor John, nor Troy, nor Vince knows for certain the meaning of this bat, just as noone knows the absolute, 100% accurate records of every model bat used by every Major League player during any player's career. The most we can do is review the records as they exist, make as informed and logical assumption as possible, and present that to any potential buyer as an opinion. It is difficult for me to reasonably suggest that the 34.75" lathe bat, with a notation that is not definitive,can negate the existing factory records and be used to definitively place the bat in Tris Speaker's hands during his playing career,
which I believe a grade of A7 certainly does. This bat does not match existing, documented factory records of the 1917-1921 labeling period, or the remainder of Speaker's playing career (1922-1928) or Speaker's post career.
Mike Jackitout7@aol.com
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