The ethics of flipping an item

[nealdevelopment@yahoo.com]

Re: The ethics of flipping an item

Barry. Why is it that everyone is missing the point except you. Why are you so sure that there were no inside deals or lists. This type of thing only happens when there is a limited supply for sale and a huge buying pool which is what we have here. Like I said this type of thing is going on everywhere, everyday and nobody give it two thoughts. This Hobby has turned into a business and is only going to get worse as time goes on. Its only my opinion. You could be totally right in your opinion. Cant we just give an opinion without pointing to somebody and saying they are wrong. Hey, I could be way off base. I was just throwing something out there for the guys to think about. I'm out and will not have any further posts. Have a good day.

[commando]

Re: The ethics of flipping an item

Many of us can use a few extra bucks these days. There was probably more than one person lucky to be on that list who KNEW the jerseys would make them an instant profit, and may have even used a credit card or borrowed some money to get one of those jerseys. After reselling it, they could repay the credit card charge or loan, and have a profit from the transaction.

The person could then use the money they made to put food on the table, or maybe buy illegal drugs and a few cases of alcohol -- it doesn't really matter (though we would feel better if this person used the money to feed the homeless or cure cancer).

The bottom line here is that the jerseys were sold at a fair price by MeiGray. Kudos to them. And it seems they did it in a way as fair as possible. Judging the motives and actions of the buyers opens up a whole other issue that isn't a practical one to discuss.

Of course, if a jersey owner alters or misrepresents an item when he tries to resell it (adds game wear, alters tagging, etc.), now we're talking about outright fraud.

[commando]

Re: The ethics of flipping an item

Even if there was an "inside deal," whatever that exactly is, there's nothing wrong with it if it's not breaking the law. A dealer might want to give a break or a bonus to a loyal customer, and certainly has the right to do so. In that scenario, it is VERY ethical. A dealer isn't making as big a profit to say thank you to a loyal customer. Once again, it does not matter what the buyer does with his newly-acquired merchandise (unless there were conditions on the sale that both sides agreed to).

Unless you've run a business like this before, you probably aren't thinking about how these things work. Your point of view is that of a "shut out" collector. These "ackpot situations happen all the time, as others here have mentioned.

[Jules9]

Re: The ethics of flipping an item

Barry. Why is it that everyone is missing the point except you. Why are you so sure that there were no inside deals or lists. This type of thing only happens when there is a limited supply for sale and a huge buying pool which is what we have here. Like I said this type of thing is going on everywhere, everyday and nobody give it two thoughts. This Hobby has turned into a business and is only going to get worse as time goes on. Its only my opinion. You could be totally right in your opinion. Cant we just give an opinion without pointing to somebody and saying they are wrong. Hey, I could be way off base. I was just throwing something out there for the guys to think about. I'm out and will not have any further posts. Have a good day.

There were no inside deals because Barry sold the jerseys. If he wanted to make more money he could of auctioned them off but he didn't. The people that put in a request for the jerseys were given a chance to buy one.

It's simple, the guy that bought the jersey basically had his name on the list before other people and bought it. He claims he was going to keep it but has now put it up for sale and a couple people think he should just sell the jersey for what he paid for it.


Here's the link to the topic

http://www.gameworn.net/cgi-bin/GW/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=020342

[mbrieve]

Re: The ethics of flipping an item

I appreciate Mr. Meisel's response. It is always helpful to get information from the horse's mouth.

I consider myself a collector and only sell occassionally to only put back into my collection. However, with few exceptions, almost everything in my collection could be had for a price. Now, I am sure that I would scare away most potentially buyers to a particular piece due to my asking price, but just about everything has a price.

Now, I don't claim to know everything about the current situation, but I can think of a scenario that I would love to have a special/rare jersey for $300, but if somebody was willing to pay me $1000 for the same jersey, I would have a hard time passing it up. I think our own Kyle Hess had a similar situation last year with a Jason Heyward jersey. Different situation, but kind of the same thing.

[gingi79]

Re: The ethics of flipping an item

I feel like I fell asleep last night with a puppy and woke up with Clifford.

I specifically left the question ambiguous so that everyone could read the details and then form an opinion. Many of you were gracious enough to do that. I think this is more than a two sided playing card where you either see a Bicycle logo or the Ace of Spades. Ignoring the "It's just a piece of clothing, there are much more important things etc" arguments (Which is true but unhelpful) To wit:

1) The game worn community is small. The hockey game worn community is tiny. Collectors are like elephants, they never forget. When they feel like someone is taking advantage of the collecting base by marking up an item to fleece them, people will stop dealing with you. Furthermore, they will bring up everything you have ever done right and wrong in the hobby every time you voice an opinion or god forbid try to sell something again. Some people actually think the initial confrontation on this shirt had to do with an item from the past and an attempt to hurt the sellers chances of selling the jersey rather than the issue at hand!

2) Timing. As Barry said, long time repeat customers of MeiGray were shut out of this set. Let's say you have purchased every style of jersey Harvey Nosepicker has worn for your favorite team. Your fondest memory of your favorite team was wearing a long defunct jersey from 30 years ago. Perfect combination for your collection right? Fair or not, it smarts when you really want that rare jersey style of your favorite player and/or team and you find out your request, while put in over a year ago, was not the first one received. Maybe you rationalize that you will find it on the secondary market someday and get it for less. You then find out someone bought this one of a kind item only because they could flip it. Many people felt re-selling it so quickly, when so many long time collectors just missed out, was preying on their disappointment and an attempt to "fleece" them. Had it re-sold next year for a smaller profit, no one would be up in arms.

On the other hand, as other have said, he got the jersey fair and square. He can do what he wants with it and now is when the jersey is the hottest. We all buy stuff and lose money on it if we need to re-sell, here was an opportunity to buy and make money. Free Enterprise working for you for once! Viva la profit!

3) The seldom admitted to "I paid my dues/entitlement" defense. It's not really polite to say and not many would come right out and admit to feeling this way but many collectors feel like they have paid full price for many items in the past, paid their dues as far as getting the standard issue Nosepicker jersey every season. Finally a jersey comes up that is one of a kind, I deserve it! And if not me, then some other long time Devils collector who has similarly collected for 20 years and paid his dues and the jersey should rest with someone who appreciates it.

"I shouldn't have to pay some (newbie or Rangers or lucky bastard) collector 4 times as much as he just paid for it, 20 minutes ago, just because he was lucky enough to get it. He heard the team would wear this jersey and put in his request 10 minutes before I did. Why am I being fleeced?"

Again two sides to this as well. I personally have an item in my collection that is one of a kind. The jersey popped up on eBay, I made an offer and so did another collector. I sent my webshots collection and a very polite note stating how much the jersey would mean to me and my collection. The other collector did something similar, except his collection is based upon a much larger scope than just the player. The other guy offered twice what I did but acted like he was entitled to the jersey because he had bought so many other jerseys fitting the general criteria. He had "paid his dues in the hobby" thus "entitling him to get this jersey." (As a side note, that particular collector will not deal with me now. He feels I stole the jersey from him and sent offers to trade for it that even a rookie collector would be perplexed by. Horrible case of entitlement)

I'll admit I felt the jersey should be in my collection because I had several other styles and I would treasure it. I'll also admit I have no right to feel that way, it just helps validate in my mind why I own it over someone else. The guy selling it agreed he would rather a player collector who treasures the jersey own it than someone who would not treasure it and only see it as something he could either profit from or brag about. Had he not been a collector or looked at it as a seller, my beloved jersey would be locked away in a collection with either a Not for Sale or a price tag that is obscene.

If you are shaking your head in disbelief, you'll be shocked to learn that there are "collectors" out there who will write down your wants and then check the boards, eBay, auctions many times for the item with the intent of buying it just to resell to you at a huge markup. A friend of mine actually pulled down his website and deleted his posts regarding the players he collected because 2 other people were making deals for jerseys he wanted and then expecting my friend to overpay for them. When he balked at the prices, he was publicly raked over the coals as a tire kicker, ungrateful and "obviously didn't have the resources to obtain the player he collects" ! Remember what I said about memories like elephants in this hobby?

[Jags Fan Dan]

Re: The ethics of flipping an item

Flipping seems to be a grey area, not really black and white because of all of the different circumstances that can go into it. In this instance, I can see why some folks would be a bit hacked off at guys who threw their hat in the ring just to try to get a valuable jersey at a low price to profit off of it. But making some people angry does not mean anything unethical was done. There was no way that everybody was going to be happy with the outcome when demand far exceeded supply. Anyone who went without was likely going to be in some way disappointed, upset, etc. On the other side of it, some guys may have been glad that somebody bought the jersey to flip it because that way they were given another chance to own it, even if it is at a higher price.

One instance where I could envision myself being mad about somebody flipping something I sold them is if somebody begged and begged for me to sell them something that I was reluctant to sell under the guise that they collect that certain player and had to have the piece for their collection, then turn around and flip it the next day, that would make me angry. That has never happened to me, but it still boils down to the fact that I would have consented to sell the item, received the payment, so I am not out anything from an ethical standpoint even in this hypothetical situation.

[BarryMeisel]

Re: The ethics of flipping an item

Neal,

I did not say everyone is missing the point except me, please don't misstate my statement.

What I said was, "Without trying to read Gingi's mind, I think some of you have missed the point of his query."

And to answer your question directly (Jules19 was right) ... I know there were no inside deals because I sold the shirts directly. I made the calls off the request list.

When 50-60 people want 20 unique items, there are a lot of ways to go. I decided not to go the auction route, because I knew many of my repeat customers wanted one Devils jersey from such a unique set. Many put their requests in within minutes, or hours, or a day after the announcement of the set, so it was not like somebody was asleep at the switch.

All Gingi was doing, it seems, was asking for opinions on the flipping. Nobody is saying it was illegal, or wrong. But buying and reselling for such a large profit did circumvent the spirit of what MeiGray was trying to do with a small circle of collectors it knows well.

Respectfully,
Barry

[otismalibu]

Re: The ethics of flipping an item

One instance where I could envision myself being mad about somebody flipping something I sold them is if somebody begged and begged for me to sell them something that I was reluctant to sell under the guise that they collect that certain player and had to have the piece for their collection, then turn around and flip it the next day, that would make me angry.

That never happens, does it?

Ever do an eBay search and find an item where the seller has published some of the Ask Seller A Question offerings at the bottom of the page? Would you take $50 to end it now? Sometimes I email the seller and coach them up a little. On a couple instances I've even been able to guess one of the eBayers that is lowballing them. They have no idea how I could possibly know that. Then I tell them to look at what that eBayer has listed.

Offered up a better auction description for one seller and she relayed the eBay IDs (and some of the stories) that she was receiving. Entertaining reads. "I just need to get this for my son!" "I'm being deployed and won't be here for the end of the auction, can I buy it now?"

[nealdevelopment@yahoo.com]

Re: The ethics of flipping an item

My apology Barry. I thought we were trying to figure out what happened. It sounds like you know what happened first hand. When something gets sold you have to figure out a way to sell it. It sounds like you made that decision whether it was right or wrong or whether people agree with it or not. Go Steelers. Go Packers.

[BarryMeisel]

Re: The ethics of flipping an item

No problem, Neal. No apology necessary, but I appreciate it.

Yes, you're correct. We knew exactly what happened.

A loyal and well-respected Devils collector bought one of the 20 jerseys, and immediately flipped it. Well within his rights, of course, but it raised the issue (raised by Gingi in an atempt to gather opinions) of whether it was the right thing to do, given that others were certain to miss out on one if he took one.

Barry

[commando]

Re: The ethics of flipping an item

Here's another way to look at it. If none of the 20 jersey owners are willing to part with their item, guess what? You have a ZERO percent chance of adding one to your collection. If one or more becomes available, at least collectors now have the chance to decide what it's worth to themselves.

If a vintage Pittsburgh Steelers jersey enters the hobby, it will probably be from a unique situation (maybe the Rooney family gave it to a close friend years ago, for example). Well someone is gonna make a ton of cash when that happens. It's the reality of rare collectibles.

[gingi79]

Re: The ethics of flipping an item

One last thing that hasn't been hit upon. Due to the fact the community is so small, antagonizing them has reprecussions. You may say free market, he did nothing wrong, good for him for making money. That's fine, you are entitled to that opinion. However, life is not fair. Just because you agree with him doesn't mean the issue is over when the jersey sells.

The New Jersey Devils have insane and loyal fans. They are also a little nuts. For proof of this, watch the Seinfeld episode where the Patrick Warburton is sitting in the cheap seats with his face painted and his shirt off. That wasn't Hollywood magic, that was real life.

They are also incredibly passionate and knowledgeable about their gamers and with only one exception, a close knit group of die hards. Lets not forget Devil fans helped uncover the deceit of Custom Crafted. When those jerseys come up for sale now, Devil fans dissect them with detail and precision. I have found them to be, on average, very giving of their time and knowledge. Until you spit in their cornflakes.

Everyone wanted one of these jerseys. Buying one and flipping it so quickly offended certain fans because (in my opinion) they felt like a cousin was doing it to them. Why are you buying a jersey with the sole intention of tripling the price when you know you are only going to make money off of your friends and family? It seems greedy and unfair to buy your brothers favorite thing and then offer to sell it to him for so much more. Why not just let him buy it for regular price instead?

I fear the outcome of this issue will be more far reaching than just the sale of a jersey. I brought up this topic because I wanted people to be aware of just how small our community is and how our actions, however legal and legitimate, may offend other collectors. You may say "Who cares what they think?" Well, you will when people refuse to sell to you or deal with you because they think you screwed them or their fellow collectors. If that seems juvenile or silly, you're right. But it's still factual.

[AutographAddiction]

Re: The ethics of flipping an item

I personally agree with what "Michigan Tech Gamers" on that site had to say...
"I have no vested interest in this item one way or the other, but I must say that it is really too bad that every time something like this happens, there is a fire storm on this board towards the person that is the seller.

Now, if for example someone violated a proceedure or did something really wrong to obtain the jersey sure maybe there would be something to discuss. But in this case (and many other similar cases) the buyer put in a request, was offered a jersey, and bought it - fair and square.

As many people mentioned before, at that point the buyer can do what they want with it. They many do one of many things that would upset other collectors - cut it up, use it for a shop rag, burn it, or *gasp* sell it for profit and buy something else.

Let's put the shoe on the other foot. Let's say you're a winner the next MeiGray grab bag and get a third place jersey. Not the grand prize Crosby you really wanted, but 3rd place Joe Sakic is still a nice shirt. You have no interest in the Sakic (not your favorite player/team) so you decide to sell it for $1,200. Would you want a fire storm on your head just because you didn't sell the jersey for $50? "But you only paid $50 for your box, why should you expect to get $1,200 for the jersey... That's not fair, it should have gone to a Colorado fan who wouldn't just flip it... You're taking advantage of people..."

Again, I'm not taking sides in this single situation. I understand both sides. I think if more people put themselves in the position of the seller... AND WERE HONEST WITH THEMSELVES... we would not see this type of reaction.

If you don't think I'm right, and you ever win the lottery, I'll buy your ticket the next day for $1, because well, that's all you paid for it.

Be nice to each other guys and gals and let it be an enjoyable hobby, not place to tear each other down from behind our keyboards.

Ryan J"

[Dach0sen0ne]

Re: The ethics of flipping an item

If you don't think I'm right, and you ever win the lottery, I'll buy your ticket the next day for $1, because well, that's all you paid for it.

+ 1,000,000,000