Card companies, the FBI & Fraud

[xpress34]

Re: Card companies, the FBI & Fraud

I wanted to throw an idea to the crowd as we have some folks with knowledge of the law and lawsuits.


Let's say a collector spends thousands of dollars hoping to acquire a game used jersey card of "Player A". Boxes and packs of cards show said player on them with a message "Find a rare Game Used swatch of Player "A"!" Advertisements in Beckett claim that this players G/U card is available from packs and collectors have a logical expectation that within some very lucky packs is the players g/u card. When the dust settles, lets say "Player A's" jersey is shown to have been modified to look game worn but 100% was not. The card company advertised a product was possible but it was not. Can the card collector sue Upper Deck, Panini, Leaf, Topps, etc?

Gingi -

I'm not an attorney, but there could be merit to your idea as there is precedent on this issue.

I don't remember the specifics, but years back, a card from UD that had a cut AU of Babe Ruth and numbered 1/1 sold for an astronomical amount (around $80k if memory serves) on eBay. The issue that came to light from one of the foremost Ruth authorities was that the AU was not authentic and it was proven beyond a reasonable doubt that it was not authentic.

UD simply tried to reimburse the auction fee and sweep it under the rug, but the buyer (and seller) sued UD for false advertising, misrepresentation, etc and if I remember correctly, it cost UD almost $1m to get the thing settled.

I would imagine that if they could be sued for selling an AU that was 'represented to them as being authentic', they could be sued for selling GU that was 'represented to them as being authentic' as well.

Besides the fact that I believe there is some type of 'guarantee' on the backs of each of these cards. If they said anywhere that they could NOT guarantee them to be what they are purported to be, I can't imagine they would sell the way they do.

Just my .02

- Smitty

[otismalibu]

Re: Card companies, the FBI & Fraud

It's been discussed for years. Chase cards are where questionable jerseys go to die.

In a hobby where people will fake the entire jersey, we're to believe a swatch is surely legit. Ever see a swatch card with a picture of the entire (uncut) jersey on the back? Ever contact the card company and ask for a photo of the jersey that was used for certain swatch cards?

First they were supposedly "game worn" by the player on the card. Then "event worn" came on the scene. Now they're just "worn" by somebody.

You can pretty much slap anything on a card and number it. You'll get bidders. It's a rare 1/1!!!! Until the next run when they build another thousand 1/1 items.

[BrewCrewSackers]

Re: Card companies, the FBI & Fraud

Yes, this is a long time coming. I got out of cards in 05 and never looked back. After buying a handfull of MLB authentic jerseys from the Brewers I've made up my mind about authenticity of jersey/patch cards=they're all crap!!! Look at any high end patch card from say, 2011 Topps Triple threads. Not a single patch card look like the swatch was ever laundered. They all look like they came from issued/not used, brand new jerseys.

[legaleagle92481]

Re: Card companies, the FBI & Fraud

How can you prove it? The jersey is cut up into little pieces. An autograph at least there is something to examine. Noone on earth can look at a tiny swatch of jersey and tell you if its real or not unless there is an obvious error such as it is supposed to be a Mark Sanchez jersey and the swatch is orange and the Jets have never ever worn orange jerseys so hence it could not possibly be a Sanchez jersey.

[rj_lucas]

Re: Card companies, the FBI & Fraud

I wanted to throw an idea to the crowd as we have some folks with knowledge of the law and lawsuits.


Let's say a collector spends thousands of dollars hoping to acquire a game used jersey card of "Player A". Boxes and packs of cards show said player on them with a message "Find a rare Game Used swatch of Player "A"!" Advertisements in Beckett claim that this players G/U card is available from packs and collectors have a logical expectation that within some very lucky packs is the players g/u card. When the dust settles, lets say "Player A's" jersey is shown to have been modified to look game worn but 100% was not. The card company advertised a product was possible but it was not. Can the card collector sue Upper Deck, Panini, Leaf, Topps, etc?

Unlikely that any individual plaintiff could claim sufficient damages to warrant a civil suit. The more likely result would be a class action, assuming someone stepped forward as a lead plaintiff. Even then, no firm will initiate a lengthy and onerous class action unless they stand to collect a judgment in the multiple millions of dollars, which, frankly, may be blood from a turnip in the case of many of these companies.

Seems to me that a civil suit is probably a non-starter here, but if the Feds get a conviction for criminal fraud, it opens the door for a 'pile on' civil action i.e. with blood in the water it's much easier to build/prove a case.

[Ollie]

Re: Card companies, the FBI & Fraud

Ever see a swatch card with a picture of the entire (uncut) jersey on the back?

Y'know if memory serves me right, the Leaf company used to put images of the full jersey on the back of their cards. Sentimental wise, this just makes things more painful when you know the whole darn thing is in little pieces!

[Eric]

Re: Card companies, the FBI & Fraud

Look at any high end patch card from say, 2011 Topps Triple threads. Not a single patch card look like the swatch was ever laundered. They all look like they came from issued/not used, brand new jerseys.

Interesting point. It's tough to tell if things like this 35 year old Merlin Olsen jersey have any use at all...

Here's a history of Sand Knit tags from another forum. Look at the use on them

http://www.jerseycentral.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=6830

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Merlin-Olsen-09-Classics-Game-Worn-LAUNDRY-TAG-Patch-SP-/260758729863?pt=US_Football&hash=item3cb66e7487

[ChuckFoPrez]

Re: Card companies, the FBI & Fraud

It always burned me up to see pieces of jerseys cut up in little squares to be inserted into cards. What a waste of a piece of history.

[otismalibu]

Re: Card companies, the FBI & Fraud

Y'know if memory serves me right, the Leaf company used to put images of the full jersey on the back of their cards.

Interesting. I tried to get UD to shoot me a pic of the Erving jersey they cut up. No luck. I have a hunch about one jersey, but it's pretty hard to prove that one swatch with some bleeding Sharpie, is from a certain auction house "gamer".

[gadsden86]

Re: Card companies, the FBI & Fraud

I have over 600 dolphins jersey/ patch cards. Some of them on back say something like this jersey was used in a game but not specific to a year or game and sometimes player.

I know at one point one of the card co's was found to be usng jerseys of players not game issued or game used. I think it was early donruss in some cases.

I try to stay away from jersey acrds now adays as most are "event used"

See pic below.

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/fan_shot_images/195694/u3alj.jpg

[Eric]

Re: Card companies, the FBI & Fraud

Anyone know what size Ben Roethlisberger wore in 2007? Was it 48 like this jersey on a Topps card?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2009-Topps-Unique-Ben-Roethlisberger-Game-Worn-Jumbo-Jersey-Size-Tag-Patch-1-1-/320763033557?pt=US_Football&hash=item4aaef777d5

Or 50 like this jersey on this Topps card

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BEN-ROETHLISBERGER-TOPPS-UNIQUE-LAUNDRY-TAG-PATCH-1-1-/230662039294?pt=US_Football&hash=item35b48766fe

[5kRunner]

Re: Card companies, the FBI & Fraud

This one is my favorite.

Santo's last season with the Cubs was 1973 and retired after 1974. The Cubs didn't wear the "pajama" or reverse pinstripe uniforms until 1978.

[Eric]

Re: Card companies, the FBI & Fraud

Here's something interesting:
See this 2009 Panini Rookie & Stars Chad Ochocinco Laundry Tag Patch SP #'d /25 which shows size 44

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chad-Ochocinco-Johnson-2009-Panini-Rookie-Stars-Laundry-Tag-Patch-SP-d-25-/180738493427?pt=US_Football&hash=item2a14da8bf3

Through Twitter I was able to ask Chad what size jersey he has worn.
He said 42. Always. Never a 44. Whoops!
Still haven't heard back from Panini about how they acquire their jerseys.
Eric

[allstarsplus]

Re: Card companies, the FBI & Fraud

Here's something interesting:
See this 2009 Panini Rookie & Stars Chad Ochocinco Laundry Tag Patch SP #'d /25 which shows size 44

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chad-Ochocinco-Johnson-2009-Panini-Rookie-Stars-Laundry-Tag-Patch-SP-d-25-/180738493427?pt=US_Football&hash=item2a14da8bf3

Through Twitter I was able to ask Chad what size jersey he has worn.
He said 42. Always. Never a 44. Whoops!
Still haven't heard back from Panini about how they acquire their jerseys.
Eric

Good job on that Eric. Nothing like going direct to the athlete.

[otismalibu]

Re: Card companies, the FBI & Fraud

Here's something interesting:
See this 2009 Panini Rookie & Stars Chad Ochocinco Laundry Tag Patch SP #'d /25 which shows size 44

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chad-Ochocin...item2a14da8bf3

Through Twitter I was able to ask Chad what size jersey he has worn.
He said 42. Always. Never a 44. Whoops!
Still haven't heard back from Panini about how they acquire their jerseys.

That's hard to believe. Chad actually figured out how to register for Twitter? Next thing you know, he'll be learning the Pats' playbook.