Dan Lozano memorabilia deals with Kevin Freistat dba KLF Sports: Indiscretions showing up with Votto

[justinwc80]

Re: Dan Lozano memorabilia deals with Kevin Freistat dba KLF Sports: Indiscretions showing up with Votto

In the end we are all fans and that will always make you biased. As much as you want to believe that your favorite player is a naive pawn they aren't. Individuals are responsible for their own decisions in the end. I think a lot of Votto but he is an adult and sports at this level, as much as I hate to admit it, are a business.

[jshortt]

Re: Dan Lozano memorabilia deals with Kevin Freistat dba KLF Sports: Indiscretions showing up with Votto

I can tell you this, Joey has offered the Reds first crack to purchase the stuff that goes to KLF (gloves, etc.). They are given a list with items Joey is making available and cost to purchase each. They pass because of the pricing. Votto knows EXACTLY what he is doing here, and despite all the evidence to the contrary, you still feel he is being taken advantage of. I'm lost as to what is making you believe he is being led astray by Lozano like he's some sort of master jedi, using the mind trick on this young, impressionable, naive athlete.

I like Joey a lot. He's a good guy, and has always been very good to me, but he is very much a professional when it comes to the autographs, inscriptions & game used stuff. I have had conversations with him where he has asked me how much his stuff is going for in various markets. He didn't take ALL his jerseys this year. He let Reds Authentics keep at least 4 that I know of, and I'm sure in his mind, that was $6000-$12,000 the RCF made from his jerseys. He took his playoff jerseys (which a player of his stature is currently allowed to do), and did what he pleased with them. In this instance, what he wanted to do was sell at least one of them. If he didn't want to sell his gear, he wouldn't. It's as simple as that. And who knows, maybe one day he'll turn into Junior and start hoarding all his stuff, but for now, he is choosing to sell it and you can like it or hate it. The choice of whether to make a moral stand and abstain from buying is on you. But believe me, somebody else will always be there, ready to pony up the dough to have the item in their collection.

-Josh

[dplettn]

Re: Dan Lozano memorabilia deals with Kevin Freistat dba KLF Sports: Indiscretions showing up with Votto

Dan, what information is out there that doesn't point to Joey just wanting to make some more money? He has been doing this since his days in the minor leagues when he was with various other game used companies (Just, PCM, Lockeroom Memorabilia for example).

All of the players are aware that jerseys and game used items sold from the Reds go to a charity. Many of the players have stated how cool it is they help raise money for the Reds Community Fund, so I find it hard to believe that Joey was unaware or lead down a different path by somebody else. The money is there and he chose to take items such as the alternate jersey out on his own to be dealt.

JV had enough perspective to realize that the further money north of $20 million a year isn't worth sacrificing a positive environment for when he chose all the good which comes with being a Cincinnati Red over leaving for a salary/endorsement richer city (ie: West Coast like Pujols or NYC like Arod). I certainly don't ignore that when considering what Votto's priorities were/are whenever he gives any matter thought. My guess on this memorabilia situation is that it comes down to him not having thought about it independently.

I understand the observations others are making with regard to Votto's tendencies from years prior. Granted, habits can be hard to break. But the organizational culture has changed in the stuff being distributed effectively by the Reds for a good cause. And, it's a different thing (with relevance to the player's pocket) to pocket some spending money when a guy is on a six figure vs an eight figure salary.

Again, I believe this is primarily an issue with who is stewarding him not knowing when being penny-focused becomes pound foolish. That's not to say he won't be the one who is victimized for it. It is not Dan Lozano's graceful dignity and endorsement value at stake.

Do you really think any guy making eight figures and endorsement prospects worth more would do such things for chump change if he was independently thinking about it or well stewarded?

[AWA85]

Re: Dan Lozano memorabilia deals with Kevin Freistat dba KLF Sports: Indiscretions showing up with Votto

Dan, what information is out there that doesn't point to Joey just wanting to make some more money? He has been doing this since his days in the minor leagues when he was with various other game used companies (Just, PCM, Lockeroom Memorabilia for example).

All of the players are aware that jerseys and game used items sold from the Reds go to a charity. Many of the players have stated how cool it is they help raise money for the Reds Community Fund, so I find it hard to believe that Joey was unaware or lead down a different path by somebody else. The money is there and he chose to take items such as the alternate jersey out on his own to be dealt.

[dplettn]

Re: Dan Lozano memorabilia deals with Kevin Freistat dba KLF Sports: Indiscretions showing up with Votto

I'm not suggesting Josh or Ryan are wrong that Votto isn't naive to the fact that the stuff his handlers having him sign as game used or game used for such and such year or game is false.

I do believe the following though:

A young man who's time and energy are focused on being exceptional at his craft should not be assumed to know that such technical falsities are relevant.

If a young man's stewards cause him to have such a perspective, he doesn't know to care whether his name is signed below a little white lie that only a few fanatical nerds are privy to.

A good steward would teach him that there is no reason to associate one's good name with such lies. A good steward certainly wouldn't cause such a blessed and hard working young man to lend his good name toward lies for compensation that presents him poorly but is irrelevant in scale/scope.

Neither would a good steward cause him to take from a charity for (small) money. It may be penny-wise, but its pound foolish.

The agent should be focused on the player's good name, and endorsement value. Its just uncaring long term stewardship from the people who are handling the gifted and hard working athlete. The athlete can not undo it and he'll be embarrassed each time he sees the items resold as an older adult. Time gives all perspective. And did the few extra bucks matter? This is peanuts next to endorsement deals.

[rchimes13@yahoo.com]

Re: Dan Lozano memorabilia deals with Kevin Freistat dba KLF Sports: Indiscretions showing up with Votto

[QUOTE=AWA85;310221
I have recently purchased a few game used items from Kevin (13alexrodriguez) and have been extremely pleased with each one of them. His communication, feedback and additional details about each item was top notch in my interactions with him. He provided me with amazing items that were well above my expectations when I received them.

I will second Josh on what he said about feeling for Jon of Reds Authentics. He does an amazing job with the game used jerseys, tracking them and really cleaning up game used items for Reds collectors.[/QUOTE]

Could not agree more on both of these statements. I purchased the 2010 ASG bat and am confident that I have a lock tight photo match on his second at bat. The only picture I can find of first at bat is his Topps card commemorating his ASG appearance and it is not my bat so I'm left to say he did use two bats in that game. I also won the 2012 playoff jersey and was able to photo match it to games 4 & 5. Although I share same sentiment as Dan and Adam regarding Jon and Reds Community Fund if i want to add to my collection of my favorite player then KLF it is, but as always I do a ton of research on each item I bid on or purchase whether its direct from Reds or Kevin.

[marino13]

Re: Dan Lozano memorabilia deals with Kevin Freistat dba KLF Sports: Indiscretions showing up with Votto

I have dealt with KLF in the past - it's catch22 at best.

Havent dealt with them since.

[AWA85]

Re: Dan Lozano memorabilia deals with Kevin Freistat dba KLF Sports: Indiscretions showing up with Votto

Unfortunately your thinking along the wrong terms In today's day in age it is Business not Baseball and much as you want Votto to be morally righteous chances are Votto knows exactly what he is doing and not being so naive as you may think.

If you want to give Votto a pass because you think he is business naive, but from your own accounts and others brought up here who I agree with 100% seems like Votto understands exactly what is going on

But I do understand your frustration, sometimes we want to believe someone is so good and honest we become blind to what is really going on

I agree 100% on Votto knowing exactly what he is doing. If you look through the MLB hologram database around the previous alternate jersey numbers you will see each and every Votto took to be authenticated. That includes multiple fielding gloves, each individual cleat as well as each individual batting glove. This is not a new thing by Votto and I find it hard to put any of this on Kevin. Joey is taking these items from the clubhouse with the intent to pass them off to be sold.

I have recently purchased a few game used items from Kevin (13alexrodriguez) and have been extremely pleased with each one of them. His communication, feedback and additional details about each item was top notch in my interactions with him. He provided me with amazing items that were well above my expectations when I received them.

I will second Josh on what he said about feeling for Jon of Reds Authentics. He does an amazing job with the game used jerseys, tracking them and really cleaning up game used items for Reds collectors.

[rchimes13@yahoo.com]

Re: Dan Lozano memorabilia deals with Kevin Freistat dba KLF Sports: Indiscretions showing up with Votto

This isn't totally on KLF OR Lozano. Hate to burst your bubble about Votto's angelic nature, but he has been selling everything that isn't nailed down for YEARS. Joey also doesn't seem to care whether something was truly game used or not when inscribing items (along the lines of A-Rod). He has sold several jerseys in the past that were clearly team issued, and signed/claimed them to be game used. His 2009 Civil Rights Game jersey was an example where he wasn't even on the active roster, but sold the presentation jersey he was given by the Reds as "game used." He did the same with his 1979 TBTC presentation jersey, when MLB had/has another jersey logged as game used. The inscriptions are totally on the player. Those types of situations are almost certainly: "I'm pretty sure this was used X day/year, so here ya go." Most of these dealers don't know any better since they aren't collectors, nor are they going to question their "exclusive clients," who should clearly know more about their own equipment than an agent/dealer (especially when they aren't clearly marked with a year like the spring training jersey). It's not fraud or false advertising...it's a screw up on the inscription and nothing more. If you're being charged a premium due to the wrong inscription, then that's something altogether different. The All Star bat is another story, but knowing Joey's mindset with these types of things, he very well may have used a different bat for every at-bat with the express intent of marketing them down the road. It certainly doesn't excuse KLF from sending the bat that was pictured in the auction. Just saying there is a good possibility there is more than one Votto ASG bat.

As for the jersey that doesn't have the "property of" tag, this has long been a common occurrance for players to skirt the system. They order and pay for pro-cut jerseys direct from the manufacturer, wear them for a game or two, then sell them. Were they game used? Of course they were. Is it totally on the up & up? Not at all. But there aren't any rules against it. They're not wearing bootleg jerseys, so there aren't any visible differences as far as MLB can tell. The only people that even know that property tag is there are the players, the clubhouse guys, and some of us nerdy collectors. The clubhouse guys certainly don't keep track of how many jerseys are in a player's locker at any given point, or which ones are getting worn on a daily basis. Do you think the general public cares if a player isn't wearing a team provided jersey? I have a game used Josh Hamilton jersey without a property tag, that is signed "game used," MLB hologrammed, and was won direct from the Reds/MLB via MLB auction. It happens a lot more than you think, and does not always mean that something is amiss.

In the end, this is on Joey, not Freistat. Freistat didn't take the jerseys out of the clubhouse, Votto did. He didn't have to take the jerseys out of the clubhouse, but he did...and then sold them. He didn't have to order jerseys direct from Majestic, wear them, sign/inscribe them, and sell them...but he did. At the end of the 2011 season, Joey took off and threw two jerseys into the stands after games. That also took roughly $4000-$8000 away from the Reds Community Fund, so was that action wrong? I feel for Jon on this, I truly do. I know he works his butt off to keep things legit, but who is he to tell Joey Votto that he isn't allowed to take his own jerseys out of the clubhouse and do whatever he wants with them, when there are currently (and I stress CURRENTLY) no rules against it? There is absolutely no legal recourse against KLF as far as Lozano/Votto providing these items to be sold. None. Until Bob Castellini goes into that clubhouse and tells the players they are not allowed to sell their jerseys/helmets/hats on the secondary market and it will be written into their contracts as a "breach of contract" type of offense (which would be a whole other matter), nothing can be done. For now it's on the player's conscience, and nothing more.

-Josh

Couldn't agree more!

[suave1477]

Re: Dan Lozano memorabilia deals with Kevin Freistat dba KLF Sports: Indiscretions showing up with Votto

And the eBay seller 13alexrodriguez is, of course, Kevin Freistat dba KLF Sports... ARod has also been refereced in responses to this thread as an example of a player who puts "GU" on anything.

Addressing Josh's earlier comment which bursted my bubble on Votto's angelic nature...

For me, the point is that Joey Votto, even more so is a relatively young man. A baseball player. In hiring an agent, the agent should aid in his business sense. Business sense sometimes amount to squeezing every dollar in a particular situation. Business sense sometimes causes the wise to defer the dollar and demonstrate grace.

Joey Votto does not have years of business experience to help him understand when not making a few bucks on something he shouldn't try to make a few bucks on is better for his wealth than making the dollar. If the agent cares for the young athlete in a long term way, the good agent would help to inform the athlete in this regard.

Unfortunately your thinking along the wrong terms In today's day in age it is Business not Baseball and much as you want Votto to be morally righteous chances are Votto knows exactly what he is doing and not being so naive as you may think.

If you want to give Votto a pass because you think he is business naive, but from your own accounts and others brought up here who I agree with 100% seems like Votto understands exactly what is going on

But I do understand your frustration, sometimes we want to believe someone is so good and honest we become blind to what is really going on

[dplettn]

Re: Dan Lozano memorabilia deals with Kevin Freistat dba KLF Sports: Indiscretions showing up with Votto

Interesting post. When I saw this Pujols bat on ebay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2012-ALBERT-...item3a7c5bb3b4) my first thought was, "No way Albert used that bat with the dark pine tar on the grip area." Then I thought maybe he changed his pine tar habits in 2012. After all, I'd documented every Pujols AB for years and years, but saw very few of his ABs once he went to Anaheim. Perhaps this was a new thing with him. But, I scrolled through just about every photo I could find of Albert taken in 2012 and couldn't find a bat with the kind of pine tar on the ebay bat. So, I'm left with two conclusions: that Albert experimented with different pine tar on this one bat and I can't find a photo; or that Albert is now willing to write "Game Used" on bats that either he didn't use, or bats that have second-player use. Whatever the case, I'd pretty much put this out of mind until reading this post. Pujols' agent, of course, is Dan Lozano.

And the eBay seller 13alexrodriguez is, of course, Kevin Freistat dba KLF Sports... ARod has also been refereced in responses to this thread as an example of a player who puts "GU" on anything.

Addressing Josh's earlier comment which bursted my bubble on Votto's angelic nature...

For me, the point is that Joey Votto, even more so is a relatively young man. A baseball player. In hiring an agent, the agent should aid in his business sense. Business sense sometimes amount to squeezing every dollar in a particular situation. Business sense sometimes causes the wise to defer the dollar and demonstrate grace.

Joey Votto does not have years of business experience to help him understand when not making a few bucks on something he shouldn't try to make a few bucks on is better for his wealth than making the dollar. If the agent cares for the young athlete in a long term way, the good agent would help to inform the athlete in this regard.

[Birdbats]

Re: Dan Lozano memorabilia deals with Kevin Freistat dba KLF Sports: Indiscretions showing up with Votto

Interesting post. When I saw this Pujols bat on ebay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2012-ALBERT-...item3a7c5bb3b4) my first thought was, "No way Albert used that bat with the dark pine tar on the grip area." Then I thought maybe he changed his pine tar habits in 2012. After all, I'd documented every Pujols AB for years and years, but saw very few of his ABs once he went to Anaheim. Perhaps this was a new thing with him. But, I scrolled through just about every photo I could find of Albert taken in 2012 and couldn't find a bat with the kind of pine tar on the ebay bat. So, I'm left with two conclusions: that Albert experimented with different pine tar on this one bat and I can't find a photo; or that Albert is now willing to write "Game Used" on bats that either he didn't use, or bats that have second-player use. Whatever the case, I'd pretty much put this out of mind until reading this post. Pujols' agent, of course, is Dan Lozano.

[GoTigers]

Re: Dan Lozano memorabilia deals with Kevin Freistat dba KLF Sports: Indiscretions showing up with Votto

This is just my opinion, but to me the inscription on the "All Star Game Bat" reads: "Game Used, 2010 All-Star, Joey Votto".. That is much different than " "Game Used 2010 All-Star Game, Joey Votto". For what it's worth, it seems that the seller is the one claiming it was used in the ASG, not Votto.

[chakes89]

Re: Dan Lozano memorabilia deals with Kevin Freistat dba KLF Sports: Indiscretions showing up with Votto

In regards to your post Chris, I've seen it happen PLENTY of times. Adam Dunn was one of the innovators of this practice. Again, I myself own a Josh Hamilton jersey without the property tag. It happens all the time, and there is no way to tell whether a player is wearing the team provided jersey or one that he ordered with money out of his own pocket. Is Rick Stowe going to have the players show him their jersey tails on the way out to the field? I have zero doubt in my mind that Votto used this trick, and that this jersey is 100% legit.

-Josh

Yeah it doesn't surprise me that the bigger names have done it, it's all about the money these days. And I have seen it from time to time as well, doesn't mean I have to like it.

[jshortt]

Re: Dan Lozano memorabilia deals with Kevin Freistat dba KLF Sports: Indiscretions showing up with Votto

This gem is my favorite so far:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JOEY-VOTTO-SIGNED-INSCRIBED-GAME-USED-JERSEY-FULL-LOA-SIGNED-BY-VOTTO-HOME-WHITE-/230889294534?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35c2130ac6&nma=true&si=%2F56ZucMvazjWBkxOl1IQdLuinB4%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Does anybody really think the Reds have Votto wearing anything without a "Property Of" tag? Especially when the Authentics programs is able bank on his stuff as much as they do? $5 wristbands and tagless jerseys aside, that whole operation seems sketchy to me. This eBay seller is also one of the "game issued" glove dealers previously mentioned on here as well, so that just adds to the puzzle.

In regards to your post Chris, I've seen it happen PLENTY of times. Adam Dunn was one of the innovators of this practice. Again, I myself own a Josh Hamilton jersey without the property tag. It happens all the time, and there is no way to tell whether a player is wearing the team provided jersey or one that he ordered with money out of his own pocket. Is Rick Stowe going to have the players show him their jersey tails on the way out to the field? I have zero doubt in my mind that Votto used this trick, and that this jersey is 100% legit.

-Josh