Bat Grading Discussion

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  • Nnunnari
    replied
    Re: Bat Grading Discussion

    Great article, thanks for sharing R.C.

    Regarding this comment:
    Is the “discretion” influenced by whom they are hired by? Auction House or Pedestrian Collector. Could that be the difference between the Gwynn bats, Nick?

    The word "discretion" basically admits that grading is done subjectively in most instances. Especially since most bats do not come with rock solid provenance, it's an educated guessing game.
    Many collectors obviously believe that "friends of the house" will reap the benefits of any bat teetering between grades. Whereas a pedestrian collector will almost always receive the lower grade as to not flood the market with too many high-grade examples.

    In John's defense, the GU8.5 was submitted by Goldin which makes it even more shocking that the grade was so low. I do not know who originally submitted the GU10. The main issue are the dates of which the grades were assigned. The GU10 in '06 and the GU8.5 in '13. The grading scale has obviously changed over the years. When John began grading bats (I believe '06?) his grading scale was much more lenient, he had not seen as many bats at that point of his career. As grading has become much more prevalent among collectors and sellers, he has tightened his grading scale. He has seen many more bats and therefore many more quality examples. This is only natural. I truly believe there are 10's out there from '06 that would grade as low as an 8 today. This is a problem since collectors value a 10 from '06 just as much as a 10 from '14. If there was a change to John's grading scale, which I believe there was, there should have been a formal announcement.
    One example, I brought John my Paul Molitor bat to authenticate during the National in Anaheim in '06. He told me it was one of the nicest Molitors he had ever seen. There is no doubt in my mind that if I had the bat graded at that time, it would have graded a 10. I finally decided to have the bat graded last year, having remembered what he said (and agreeing with him) only to receive a 9. It's hard to imagine there are Molitor bats two grades higher than this one. The re-sale value of this bat was negatively affected by one man's opinion of it's quality.

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  • esquiresports
    replied
    Re: Bat Grading Discussion

    You guys might be interested to know that sometimes PSA does split the authentication and grading processes. For example, with unopened material, Steve Hart of BBCE authenticates all unopened product. A different group of people grade the unopened material. Perhaps this is an ideal solution, or at least a step forward, for the concerns expressed by many here. Taube can authenticate - his true speciality - and another group can grade - more of a formulaic exercise.

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  • R. C. Walker
    replied
    Re: Bat Grading Discussion

    Originally posted by danesei@yahoo.com
    Grading systems aren't only about resale value. They also protect new collectors who aren't quite aware of what creates good value. Knowledge is gained (generally) from two sources: Experience (collecting your mistakes, as Vince Malta would say) and education (studying what others have written on the subject or learning directly from experts).

    Interesting article about protection.


    http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=28770#more-28770

    Leave a comment:


  • R. C. Walker
    replied
    Re: Bat Grading Discussion

    To all the bat collectors/experts out there, whether you agree or disagree with bat grading, what are your opinions regarding the bat grading standards set forth by PSA:

    PSA/DNA GU4 - GU10
 States, “The bat in question must match available factory records . . .
    “Once again I ask: Outside of Louisville Slugger does anyone have access to historical factory records for say Andirondak or Worth? How about data from the numerous current manufacturers? If not, theoretically no other bat other than LS may receive a grade higher than GU3.

    BUT

    PSA/DNA GU10 Reads, “In cases where documentation is not included, if a bat possesses perfect player characteristics, exhibits medium to heavy use and satisfies all other criteria to achieve a grade of PSA/DNA GU 10, the authenticator, at his discretion, may award the highest grade.
    Is the “discretion” influenced by whom they are hired by? Auction House or Pedestrian Collector. Could that be the difference between the Gwynn bats, Nick?

    And Finally: PSA/DNA GU 6 - GU10
 “. . . minor repairs may be acceptable.”
    Really? You can get a “10” for a bat with minor repairs? I’m going to get some wood putty to fill in those Batboy nails on a Winfield I have and repair some restored foil stamping (Not really).

    I agree with Roady on all his points & Jeff Scott, who has helped me way, way back. Grading is just too too subjective.

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  • Roady
    replied
    Re: Bat Grading Discussion

    Two points I would like to make.
    Number 1. I don't care what anyone says a bat is "graded" at. I see a bat I like then I buy it. Grading bats is about as dumb to me as milking a bull.
    I see bats in four categories.
    1 - No use
    2 - light use
    3 - moderate use
    4 - heavy use
    I don't need anyone else to tell me what my eyes can see.

    Number 2. MeiGray's lifetime guarantee is only as good as they are in business or they decide to change it. There is no 100% lifetime guarantee that you can count on. That guarantee is at the desecration of the company.
    Not saying anything negative about MieGray.

    Leave a comment:


  • vonbrandingo
    replied
    Re: Bat Grading Discussion

    danesei, PSA said they were unable to authenticate the signature. May not mean it's fake I guess, but it is questionable at best. I've seen a few Gwynn signatures and can't remember one that looks like this from any point in his career.

    Goldin is the leading marketplace for trading cards and collectibles

    Leave a comment:


  • gingi79
    replied
    Re: Bat Grading Discussion

    Originally posted by danesei@yahoo.com
    Also, does MeiGray guarantee the items beyond the first party to purchase from them?

    Yes, MeiGray stands behind their stuff, forever. Purchase it from them or be the 34th person to own the shirt.

    They are (sadly) not utilized by every team in the NHL but rather have about a half dozen partner teams. Additionally, they have a Vintage division and MeiGray Select which are some of the most incredible jerseys in the hobby.

    Also worth mentioning, they know every jersey worn by their partner team for the season with a publicly accessible Population Report detailing set dates. Unlike other dealers and teams I could mention which seem to have players wearing 20+ jerseys per season and no such detailed accounting.

    Oh and their is no "grade" or hedging on their jerseys, sticks, pucks, helmets etc. There is only "Yes" and it's Registered or "No" we cannot confirm this is 100% authentic and it isn't registered with them.

    Leave a comment:


  • danesei@yahoo.com
    replied
    Re: Bat Grading Discussion

    Originally posted by Nnunnari
    Danasei, the thread killer.
    Thanks. Though, I'm not sure I'd call a thread dead that's only three days old.

    Anyway, here's the LOA portion of the GU10, for comparison sake. Again, I don't understand where you got the information that the signature was deemed not good by PSA. Sorry for the image size, I don't know how to change the scale.

    Leave a comment:


  • rdeversole
    replied
    Re: Bat Grading Discussion

    Originally posted by Nnunnari
    Danasei, the thread killer.
    +1

    Leave a comment:


  • Nnunnari
    replied
    Re: Bat Grading Discussion

    Danasei, the thread killer.

    Leave a comment:


  • danesei@yahoo.com
    replied
    Re: Bat Grading Discussion

    Originally posted by gingi79
    Never forget, people put a premium on MeiGray items because they stand behind their stuff. Forever. No grades, no conjecture, prove it's fake 25 years from now....full refund.
    But, isn't MeiGray like MLB Authenticated for the NBA/NHL? I mean, don't they just sell the items for the NBA/NHL? As such, I'm not sure how you would prove the items to not be what they're stated to be. That said, does MLB offer a similar refund option with their items? Also, does MeiGray guarantee the items beyond the first party to purchase from them?

    Leave a comment:


  • gingi79
    replied
    Re: Bat Grading Discussion

    Originally posted by Lunytune2
    Bat grading sounds more like authenticating to me ... someone just thought it needed a number scale instead of just a genuine
    I agree. I always saw Comic Book grading and Card grading as logical. Like BirdBats said, look at the aesthetic, how it matches perfect printing, centering, colors, etc.

    Game used stuff is intrenched in one of two camps. Real and Bogus. Using a grading scale is like saying "This is a photomatched example of one bat used by a player in one at bat during a 15 year career. Grade 10." Any deviations require a demerit of "X" points.

    Even with a length and breadth of knowledge like John, mistakes are made. Not intentional, but it does happen. I'm not advocating he needs additional authenticators as much as eliminating this nonsense grading scale. Stuff is real or it isn't. Logically, that should be the one and only grade assigned to game used items. But it will never happen.

    A 5.0 from MEARS or John or anyone means they are 50 percent sure this is the real deal. Even a 6.5 is only a 65% approval rating. Try suing someone whose opinion is there is only a 65% chance this is what it is proported to be.

    Never forget, people put a premium on MeiGray items because they stand behind their stuff. Forever. No grades, no conjecture, prove it's fake 25 years from now....full refund.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nnunnari
    replied
    Re: Bat Grading Discussion

    Excellent post Jeff, thanks for sharing.

    To one of your points, most players will naturally use their favorite gamers until it breaks. Docking a bat a half point for a crack (unless it's a severe crack) is asinine in my eyes.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lunytune2
    replied
    Re: Bat Grading Discussion

    Bat grading sounds more like authenticating to me ... someone just thought it needed a number scale instead of just a genuine

    Leave a comment:


  • Lunytune2
    replied
    Re: Bat Grading Discussion

    Originally posted by Birdbats
    Grading is a wonderful thing for cards and coins because the only perspective considered is aesthetics. There is a standard system for "point deductions" based on flaws -- centering, corner sharpness, printing registration, gloss, etc. But, bats are a completely different animal because the grade goes beyond aesthetics to include authenticity based on use characteristics.

    It's like having a contest where people are judged on their singing AND cooking skills. You can judge singing, you can judge cooking (both subjectively, of course)... but combining the two creates an odd competition. To me, it's even worse with bats because there is inherent conflict between aesthetics and use. For example, an older Adirondack bat can be docked points for flaked foil stamping -- but if the loss of markings is the result of heavy use, is it really a flaw? Or, there's the McGwire example, where we know (at least during his Cardinals days) that he stopped using bats for essentially one of two reasons -- it couldn't be used anymore (crack or deadwood), or he signed it and gave it to an acquaintance or museum. To me, a cracked McGwire Cardinals bat should grade higher than an uncracked bat because there's a higher likelihood he actually used it. But, with a generic scale that adds aesthetics to the equation, a cracked Mac bat loses points for the crack.

    I think there would be value in grading if it was limited to authenticity/use characteristics. However, to be truly useful, grading would need to be akin to judging dogs at Westminster -- each example would need to be graded according to the "ideal" for its breed. For one player, an ideal bat could be lightly used because that player has a tendency to go through many bats and prefers new wood. For another player, it might require heavy use and tar. Or handle tape or scoring. Or ball marks in a particular location. Or cleat marks on the barrel. Or a uniform number written in a certain way. Such a system would require many experts because no one person could possibly determine the "standard" for every player.

    Even that kind of system could be controversial. Consider the photo-matched bat with MLB hologram that cracks before it can acquire the player's typical use characteristics (heavy tar, excessive ball marks). Would such a well-documented bat deserve to grade lower than an undocumented bat with perfect use characteristics? Using the dog show analogy, is it fair to say, "Well, it certainly is a real beagle, but it's not an ideal beagle" and, therefore, grade it lower?

    As for aesthetics, the reality is some collectors like cracks and some don't. Some like restored and some don't. Some like light use and some like heavy. This isn't like coins, where I can't imagine there's a huge subset of collectors who want heavy wear and nicks because it proves the coin was "used." The value of a game-used bat, as influence by a grade, should be determined by the likelihood it actually was used by the player in question and whether it possesses the ideal use characteristics. Beyond that, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You could have bats graded 10 that are cracked or uncracked and different collectors will value them in different ways.
    Grading is a good thing ... but how is a bat graded ... in coins and baseball cards it is the pristine condition (which I believe there is no 10 baseball card or ms70 coin .... mass production is NEVER perfect) ... a perfect unused bat is essentally worthless in my opinion , and how would a beat up heavily used bat get a "10" ... because someone said so who is an expert .... so a $150 bat is now a $500 bat ?????? REALLY !

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