Bat Grading Discussion

[danesei@yahoo.com]

Re: Bat Grading Discussion

What? This is the problem Danasei, nothing you have said in this entire thread has made any sense. You are out of your element Donny.
I am not sure why I am even wasting my time responding to you but here goes.
I believe what you were trying to say is that the bat itself gives it legitimacy or provenance? More of the /3000 hit bats were used for promotional reasons or Spring Training than actual games.
Here is one on ebay which is no good. Another bat that passed with flying colors by John. "....bat shows evidence of signifcant game use." Yikes.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tony-Gwynn-G...item3a8b5eed28

The bat that is in that listing on eBay is clearly a promotional bat. That is apparent by the grains per inch (looks to be in the 9+ range). Since the LOA doesn't show a picture of whatever bat was graded by John, I would say it's possible that this bat were switched out. I guess you could always ask John to verify against his own records whether that was the actual bat reviewed.

[Nnunnari]

Re: Bat Grading Discussion

"As for your question about the Brett/Gwynn bat comparisons, a big part of the provenance may be driven by the bat itself. I'm not sure of how many of those /3000 bats were ordered (you're the expert on Gwynn, apparently, so you would know this more than anyone), but I'm guessing it was possibly as few as 20 or 30."

What? This is the problem Danasei, nothing you have said in this entire thread has made any sense. You are out of your element Donny.
I am not sure why I am even wasting my time responding to you but here goes.
I believe what you were trying to say is that the bat itself gives it legitimacy or provenance? More of the /3000 hit bats were used for promotional reasons or Spring Training than actual games.
Here is one on ebay which is no good. Another bat that passed with flying colors by John. "....bat shows evidence of signifcant game use." Yikes.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tony-Gwynn-Game-Used-Signed-1999-San-Diego-Padres-LVS-B267-Bat-JOHN-TAUBE-LOA-/251446357288?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a8b5eed28

[danesei@yahoo.com]

Re: Bat Grading Discussion

Good points Scott regarding Tim and Jeff. Both are very knowledgeable and are tremendous assets to the hobby. Although there may not be a "barrier of entry" to the authenticating world, I believe it is pretty clear that the hobby only wants one authenticator/grader to lean on. I believe this is evident by the lack of people using Tim's services even though he has a very nice LOA and is just as knowledgeable as other authenticators.

Danasei, this conversation is so far over your head it has become comical.

What are your opinions on special HR or Hit bats? Should these bats be graded a 10 due to their rock solid provenance or graded lower due to their light use? Shouldn't a 10 be reserved only for the finest examples of a player's gamer? It is strange to me that a bat used for one game can grade a 10 when hammered bats will grade a 9 because there is no provenance.

These two bats were used for 1-2 games, show roughly the same amount of use while one bat is cracked and one is not (neither bat submitted with a player LOA). The Gwynn is graded a GU10, the Brett is graded a GU8. Why is there a four grade difference between these two bats? Shouldn't they both be an 8/8.5 or a 9.5/10? It's the inconsistency in John's grading that really drives people crazy.

Nick, I find your condescending remarks in reaction to my responses to be completely asinine and reflective of your true intent in posting this thread. If the intent were educational and/or to establish that there needs to be alternative graders, that's one thing. My response was that the market drives whether a moat is strong enough to create necessary barriers to entry.

As for your question about the Brett/Gwynn bat comparisons, a big part of the provenance may be driven by the bat itself. I'm not sure of how many of those /3000 bats were ordered (you're the expert on Gwynn, apparently, so you would know this more than anyone), but I'm guessing it was possibly as few as 20 or 30.

[Nnunnari]

Re: Bat Grading Discussion

Good points Scott regarding Tim and Jeff. Both are very knowledgeable and are tremendous assets to the hobby. Although there may not be a "barrier of entry" to the authenticating world, I believe it is pretty clear that the hobby only wants one authenticator/grader to lean on. I believe this is evident by the lack of people using Tim's services even though he has a very nice LOA and is just as knowledgeable as other authenticators.

Danasei, this conversation is so far over your head it has become comical.

What are your opinions on special HR or Hit bats? Should these bats be graded a 10 due to their rock solid provenance or graded lower due to their light use? Shouldn't a 10 be reserved only for the finest examples of a player's gamer? It is strange to me that a bat used for one game can grade a 10 when hammered bats will grade a 9 because there is no provenance.

These two bats were used for 1-2 games, show roughly the same amount of use while one bat is cracked and one is not (neither bat submitted with a player LOA). The Gwynn is graded a GU10, the Brett is graded a GU8. Why is there a four grade difference between these two bats? Shouldn't they both be an 8/8.5 or a 9.5/10? It's the inconsistency in John's grading that really drives people crazy.

[danesei@yahoo.com]

Re: Bat Grading Discussion

But as much as I respect taube and the great work he does I agree that there should be different options and not just one standard IE HOF Bats, Bird Bats (those guys just do outstanding work) But we as collectors set the market. A Jeter bat with a taube letter will command $$$$$ compared to a Jeter bat with a fully detailed hall of fame bats letter??? Right now, it is what it is.

I don't see a problem with the price discrepancy afforded "HOF Bats" (Tim) authenticated bats vs PSA authenticated bats. Part of what drives PSA prices is liquidity and accessibility of archives. Also, the pricing arbitrage makes it sometimes more affordable to purchase a bat that I have confidence in than one with no authentication/certification at all. I think the photo-matching service is a cool value add ($25 for 5+ pages of photos/comparisons), but in terms of base pricing, the spread isn't enough to justify using Tim over PSA.

I think that the big issue will always reside with the fact that, for the most part, modern gamers qualify for the lowest tier on PSA's pricing scale. At the lowest tier ($499 and less), the authentication fee is actually lower than Tim's fee, since his lowest tier starts with the limit of PSA's second lowest tier ($999 and less). As for Bird Bats, I wasn't aware that Jeff offered authentication as a service, at least not in the form of a submission-based LOA.

As for the specific case of a Jeter gamer, I can't speak to Tim's nor John's experience in dealing with game used bats from Jeter, but given the $50 difference in authentication fees between the two, the market would dictate that paying to have Tim authenticate your bat over PSA would be an unwise expenditure of resources. Again, this conclusion is driven entirely by the economics. If you value Tim's opinion on Jeter gamers, buy them at a discount, then submit them to PSA and capture whatever arbitrage there is.

I've bought a bat from Tim before, and I was pleased with the transaction. He's quite professional, and his LOA is a nice read. I've also used John's services (through PSA) for bats in the past, and he's been patient with questions I had about submissions. I would recommend either for their services, but if this is a purely economic discussion (which it tends to be), it doesn't make sense to opt for Tim's services due to the small difference in cost relative to the value of the item.

[5toolplayer]

Re: Bat Grading Discussion

The only problem I have with your statement is, it is well documented that players share each other's bats and to get a bat with a players name on it does not always mean that player used it. A bat boy can grab a bat and say " ya it is a game used bat from x player" but there is no proof that that player used it without knowledge of how to check for game used characteristics or the ability to check for photo matching. Just because your source says it from a certain player doesn't always make it so, even after, like you said at the end of a home stand when the bat boys split them up to sell and make their own profit. I'm a big Bryce Harper fan and he's well known to give away to fans and players including college players brand new bats and use other players bats ( he likes to use Chase Utley bats). How do I know he actually used it then if a bat boy just grabs left over bats from a dug out?

Excellent example with the Harper bat, what u see is not always what u get. When a collector is dropping that much money on an item I guess that little piece of paper makes you feel a little better before you hit that confirm payment button. Even though it's not close to being a perfect system there's nothing worse then buying a bat only to find out later ( either by matching or expert) that is was not used by the player you thought it was. I know the buyer should always do the leg work before buying but sometimes it isn't that simple. But as much as I respect taube and the great work he does I agree that there should be different options and not just one standard IE HOF Bats, Bird Bats (those guys just do outstanding work) But we as collectors set the market. A Jeter bat with a taube letter will command $$$$$ compared to a Jeter bat with a fully detailed hall of fame bats letter??? Right now, it is what it is.

[carbonrosa]

Re: Bat Grading Discussion

This grading of a bat is total insanity. As I have read on this thread, either a bat is real or it's not and let me decide about the use, cracks etc. As a person who played pro baseball and known as a Batologist by my teammates and a bat Wh--- by Robin Ventura, we were teammates at OSU, I know a thing or two about lumber.

I have collected bats in person from 1977 to 1985 in Toronto, and have continued to collect to this day, even during my time as a pro. I am extremely passionate about bats. I made friends and went to school with several bat boys from the Blue Jays, yes the Seagull guy,lol. I was also able to purchase many bats from these guys over the last number of years. So, now I am selling some bats. I get asked, is there a letter or is is graded? Can you send it in for grading? These bats were obtained by me, in person, from the players hands themselves or split up amongst bat boys after every home stand and traded and sold to me over the years.

Lets get to the reality of this and the only reason why a bat has a grade, is CASH. Plain and simply, if all this authenticator had to do was say yes or no, he would not be making 100 to 300 dollars per. Vince malta's book is a must for anyone collecting bats. That can help you teach yourself about what is and what is not good. Education is the most important part of collecting with the fraud that exists today. I don't feel that any one persons grading on a bat should dictate the price for it. Rather as said before, this is a real, not fake, game used bat from the major league player named on the barrel, and us adults can take it from there.

PS.. Competition is the best form of regulation.

The only problem I have with your statement is, it is well documented that players share each other's bats and to get a bat with a players name on it does not always mean that player used it. A bat boy can grab a bat and say " ya it is a game used bat from x player" but there is no proof that that player used it without knowledge of how to check for game used characteristics or the ability to check for photo matching. Just because your source says it from a certain player doesn't always make it so, even after, like you said at the end of a home stand when the bat boys split them up to sell and make their own profit. I'm a big Bryce Harper fan and he's well known to give away to fans and players including college players brand new bats and use other players bats ( he likes to use Chase Utley bats). How do I know he actually used it then if a bat boy just grabs left over bats from a dug out?

[danesei@yahoo.com]

Re: Bat Grading Discussion

Yes, it's broken in 2 pieces. Sure, hypothetically, if Braun used a bat for his 100th RBI of 2011 and it didn't break, yes it would be worth more. But that's not the case. This is the only bat he got his 100th RBI with.

I see where you're coming from though. Should I send it into John as an experiment?

Since it's MLB authenticated (I'm guessing two stickers, since it's in two parts), I'm pretty sure you'd be wasting your time/money getting it authenticated/graded.

[Roady]

Re: Bat Grading Discussion

[QUOTE=
Lets get to the reality of this and the only reason why a bat has a grade, is CASH. [/QUOTE]

Winner, winner, chicken dinner!
Follow the money.

[Lumber 1980]

Re: Bat Grading Discussion

Sorry.. I'm not sure if my personal info is on here... Todd Bargman is my name. A bat that is repaired is ruining the bat in my opinion. A cracked bat to me would be a bat that a player liked and used till it broke. Much more desirable to me and I know as a player that those ones are the ones I kept from my playing days.

[rudyjj18]

Re: Bat Grading Discussion

Yes, it's broken in 2 pieces. Sure, hypothetically, if Braun used a bat for his 100th RBI of 2011 and it didn't break, yes it would be worth more. But that's not the case. This is the only bat he got his 100th RBI with.

I see where you're coming from though. Should I send it into John as an experiment?

[Lumber 1980]

Re: Bat Grading Discussion

This grading of a bat is total insanity. As I have read on this thread, either a bat is real or it's not and let me decide about the use, cracks etc. As a person who played pro baseball and known as a Batologist by my teammates and a bat Wh--- by Robin Ventura, we were teammates at OSU, I know a thing or two about lumber.

I have collected bats in person from 1977 to 1985 in Toronto, and have continued to collect to this day, even during my time as a pro. I am extremely passionate about bats. I made friends and went to school with several bat boys from the Blue Jays, yes the Seagull guy,lol. I was also able to purchase many bats from these guys over the last number of years. So, now I am selling some bats. I get asked, is there a letter or is is graded? Can you send it in for grading? These bats were obtained by me, in person, from the players hands themselves or split up amongst bat boys after every home stand and traded and sold to me over the years.

Lets get to the reality of this and the only reason why a bat has a grade, is CASH. Plain and simply, if all this authenticator had to do was say yes or no, he would not be making 100 to 300 dollars per. Vince malta's book is a must for anyone collecting bats. That can help you teach yourself about what is and what is not good. Education is the most important part of collecting with the fraud that exists today. I don't feel that any one persons grading on a bat should dictate the price for it. Rather as said before, this is a real, not fake, game used bat from the major league player named on the barrel, and us adults can take it from there.

PS.. Competition is the best form of regulation.

[rdeversole]

Re: Bat Grading Discussion

Example, I've got a Ryan Braun gamer from 2011. Used it to hit his 100th RBI from his MVP year (yeah, yeah, I've heard all the jokes). It has a large crack down the back side of the back and is in 2 pieces. MLB authenticated. Shows heavy use (in my opinion). Now is that deserving of a lower grade because of the significant crack? In my opinion, no. Now, if the bat showed little use, large crack, few transfer marks, etc; yes, it should get a lower grade. I get hung up on the downgrade for the crack.

Are you saying your bat is BROKEN into 2 pieces? Bats that are broken are generally less desirable and less valuable when compared to a cracked or uncracked bat that exhibit the same usuage. If the bat you own was exactly the same but uncracked, do you think it should grade the same as your bat did?

[rudyjj18]

Re: Bat Grading Discussion

Yeah, the "downgrade" for a cracked bat seems odd to me. If a bat has great provenance and shows heavy use, it should be a "10".

Example, I've got a Ryan Braun gamer from 2011. Used it to hit his 100th RBI from his MVP year (yeah, yeah, I've heard all the jokes). It has a large crack down the back side of the back and is in 2 pieces. MLB authenticated. Shows heavy use (in my opinion). Now is that deserving of a lower grade because of the significant crack? In my opinion, no. Now, if the bat showed little use, large crack, few transfer marks, etc; yes, it should get a lower grade. I get hung up on the downgrade for the crack.

[Nnunnari]

Re: Bat Grading Discussion

John & Anthony,

I appreciate your input. I want to make it clear that I hold John in high regard. He knows an incredible amount about game used bats and I would recommend anyone looking for authentication to send their bats to John. I would recommend John over anyone else in the hobby. He has a great product.

I feel that it is important for the new wave of collectors to understand the nature behind assigned grades and the blurred lines involved. It appears many people believe those grades are etched in stone, facts.

Again, John has done an incredible amount for this hobby, more than any of us could accomplish.

If I could quit my day job and make a living off authenticating/grading bats, I would, unfortunately I can't at this point in my life. I am sure PSA however, could find others to lend a helping hand.