Bat Grading Discussion

[danesei@yahoo.com]

Re: Bat Grading Discussion

Never forget, people put a premium on MeiGray items because they stand behind their stuff. Forever. No grades, no conjecture, prove it's fake 25 years from now....full refund.

But, isn't MeiGray like MLB Authenticated for the NBA/NHL? I mean, don't they just sell the items for the NBA/NHL? As such, I'm not sure how you would prove the items to not be what they're stated to be. That said, does MLB offer a similar refund option with their items? Also, does MeiGray guarantee the items beyond the first party to purchase from them?

[Nnunnari]

Re: Bat Grading Discussion

Danasei, the thread killer.

[rdeversole]

Re: Bat Grading Discussion

Danasei, the thread killer.

+1

[danesei@yahoo.com]

Re: Bat Grading Discussion

Danasei, the thread killer.

Thanks. Though, I'm not sure I'd call a thread dead that's only three days old.

Anyway, here's the LOA portion of the GU10, for comparison sake. Again, I don't understand where you got the information that the signature was deemed not good by PSA. Sorry for the image size, I don't know how to change the scale.

[gingi79]

Re: Bat Grading Discussion

Also, does MeiGray guarantee the items beyond the first party to purchase from them?

Yes, MeiGray stands behind their stuff, forever. Purchase it from them or be the 34th person to own the shirt.

They are (sadly) not utilized by every team in the NHL but rather have about a half dozen partner teams. Additionally, they have a Vintage division and MeiGray Select which are some of the most incredible jerseys in the hobby.

Also worth mentioning, they know every jersey worn by their partner team for the season with a publicly accessible Population Report detailing set dates. Unlike other dealers and teams I could mention which seem to have players wearing 20+ jerseys per season and no such detailed accounting.

Oh and their is no "grade" or hedging on their jerseys, sticks, pucks, helmets etc. There is only "Yes" and it's Registered or "No" we cannot confirm this is 100% authentic and it isn't registered with them.

[vonbrandingo]

Re: Bat Grading Discussion

danesei, PSA said they were unable to authenticate the signature. May not mean it's fake I guess, but it is questionable at best. I've seen a few Gwynn signatures and can't remember one that looks like this from any point in his career.

http://www.goldinauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=7214

[Roady]

Re: Bat Grading Discussion

Two points I would like to make.
Number 1. I don't care what anyone says a bat is "graded" at. I see a bat I like then I buy it. Grading bats is about as dumb to me as milking a bull.
I see bats in four categories.
1 - No use
2 - light use
3 - moderate use
4 - heavy use
I don't need anyone else to tell me what my eyes can see.

Number 2. MeiGray's lifetime guarantee is only as good as they are in business or they decide to change it. There is no 100% lifetime guarantee that you can count on. That guarantee is at the desecration of the company.
Not saying anything negative about MieGray.

[R. C. Walker]

Re: Bat Grading Discussion

To all the bat collectors/experts out there, whether you agree or disagree with bat grading, what are your opinions regarding the bat grading standards set forth by PSA:

PSA/DNA GU4 - GU10
 States, “The bat in question must match available factory records . . .
“Once again I ask: Outside of Louisville Slugger does anyone have access to historical factory records for say Andirondak or Worth? How about data from the numerous current manufacturers? If not, theoretically no other bat other than LS may receive a grade higher than GU3.

BUT

PSA/DNA GU10 Reads, “In cases where documentation is not included, if a bat possesses perfect player characteristics, exhibits medium to heavy use and satisfies all other criteria to achieve a grade of PSA/DNA GU 10, the authenticator, at his discretion, may award the highest grade.
Is the “discretion” influenced by whom they are hired by? Auction House or Pedestrian Collector. Could that be the difference between the Gwynn bats, Nick?

And Finally: PSA/DNA GU 6 - GU10
 “. . . minor repairs may be acceptable.”
Really? You can get a “10” for a bat with minor repairs? I’m going to get some wood putty to fill in those Batboy nails on a Winfield I have and repair some restored foil stamping (Not really).

I agree with Roady on all his points & Jeff Scott, who has helped me way, way back. Grading is just too too subjective.

[R. C. Walker]

Re: Bat Grading Discussion

Grading systems aren't only about resale value. They also protect new collectors who aren't quite aware of what creates good value. Knowledge is gained (generally) from two sources: Experience (collecting your mistakes, as Vince Malta would say) and education (studying what others have written on the subject or learning directly from experts).

Interesting article about protection.

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=28770#more-28770

[esquiresports]

Re: Bat Grading Discussion

You guys might be interested to know that sometimes PSA does split the authentication and grading processes. For example, with unopened material, Steve Hart of BBCE authenticates all unopened product. A different group of people grade the unopened material. Perhaps this is an ideal solution, or at least a step forward, for the concerns expressed by many here. Taube can authenticate - his true speciality - and another group can grade - more of a formulaic exercise.

[Nnunnari]

Re: Bat Grading Discussion

Great article, thanks for sharing R.C.

Regarding this comment:
Is the “discretion” influenced by whom they are hired by? Auction House or Pedestrian Collector. Could that be the difference between the Gwynn bats, Nick?

The word "discretion" basically admits that grading is done subjectively in most instances. Especially since most bats do not come with rock solid provenance, it's an educated guessing game.
Many collectors obviously believe that "friends of the house" will reap the benefits of any bat teetering between grades. Whereas a pedestrian collector will almost always receive the lower grade as to not flood the market with too many high-grade examples.

In John's defense, the GU8.5 was submitted by Goldin which makes it even more shocking that the grade was so low. I do not know who originally submitted the GU10. The main issue are the dates of which the grades were assigned. The GU10 in '06 and the GU8.5 in '13. The grading scale has obviously changed over the years. When John began grading bats (I believe '06?) his grading scale was much more lenient, he had not seen as many bats at that point of his career. As grading has become much more prevalent among collectors and sellers, he has tightened his grading scale. He has seen many more bats and therefore many more quality examples. This is only natural. I truly believe there are 10's out there from '06 that would grade as low as an 8 today. This is a problem since collectors value a 10 from '06 just as much as a 10 from '14. If there was a change to John's grading scale, which I believe there was, there should have been a formal announcement.
One example, I brought John my Paul Molitor bat to authenticate during the National in Anaheim in '06. He told me it was one of the nicest Molitors he had ever seen. There is no doubt in my mind that if I had the bat graded at that time, it would have graded a 10. I finally decided to have the bat graded last year, having remembered what he said (and agreeing with him) only to receive a 9. It's hard to imagine there are Molitor bats two grades higher than this one. The re-sale value of this bat was negatively affected by one man's opinion of it's quality.

[Nnunnari]

Re: Bat Grading Discussion

You guys might be interested to know that sometimes PSA does split the authentication and grading processes. For example, with unopened material, Steve Hart of BBCE authenticates all unopened product. A different group of people grade the unopened material. Perhaps this is an ideal solution, or at least a step forward, for the concerns expressed by many here. Taube can authenticate - his true speciality - and another group can grade - more of a formulaic exercise.

Excellent comment Scott. The grading should be left to someone without a vested interest in the outcome.

If John has a player "X" GU10 up for sale on his website, does he want another GU10 of same player going to auction? Maybe it helps, maybe it hurts.

[danesei@yahoo.com]

Re: Bat Grading Discussion

danesei, PSA said they were unable to authenticate the signature. May not mean it's fake I guess, but it is questionable at best. I've seen a few Gwynn signatures and can't remember one that looks like this from any point in his career.

http://www.goldinauctions.com/LotDet...ventoryid=7214

That statement means that John Taube's division of PSA (the NJ office) can't authenticate the signature, since they don't do that. If you look at any signed bat that isn't previously authenticated by PSADNA (the CA office), the LOA will state that or something similar.

[danesei@yahoo.com]

Re: Bat Grading Discussion

PSA/DNA GU4 - GU10
 States, “The bat in question must match available factory records . . .
“Once again I ask: Outside of Louisville Slugger does anyone have access to historical factory records for say Andirondak or Worth? How about data from the numerous current manufacturers? If not, theoretically no other bat other than LS may receive a grade higher than GU3.

I believe the problem is what you define as available. Adirondack does have factory records of what weights/lengths/models of bats were ordered by players. They may not be available to the public, as is the case with H&B (thanks to Malta's research and book), but they exist to at least the 50s.

That means that available factory records for Adirondack (I can't speak re: Worth/Wilson/Spalding/etc) might not be as exact (dates of production, number ordered, etc) as H&B, but they do exist.

As an example, Willie Mays ordered M63 35" 33 oz bats from Adirondack during his playing days, according to factory records. If a bat was submitted that fit into those specifications, had Mays player characteristics, and showed medium-heavy usage, that bat would be eligible for a grade of GU7 or higher. I don't see how one would interpret the factory record requirement to mean every company must keep records in the same fashion/system as H&B did for the Louisville Slugger bats.

[vonbrandingo]

Re: Bat Grading Discussion

That statement means that John Taube's division of PSA (the NJ office) can't authenticate the signature, since they don't do that. If you look at any signed bat that isn't previously authenticated by PSADNA (the CA office), the LOA will state that or something similar.

Ok bud.