Legendary Auctions

[ShaimOnYou]

Re: Legendary Auctions

Hi everybody,

I apologize if any of you mistook my first sentence as "chastisizing." I did not mean it that way. I only meant it as a direct response to the speculation of who was responsible for the auction being delayed and extended.

MeiGray has always appreciated comments and criticism and discussion of facts known and things we do.

The purpose of my post was to explain what has happened, and what is happening.

We will continue to do so regarding this situation.

Respectfully,

Barry

Barry,

Thank you for the upstanding response. Hopefully I speak for many when I say it was well received. I would respectfully argue that "what has happened" is still unexplained, but we'll get to that.

It is also commendable of you to shoulder the blame for the extension of the auction of the Gretzky jersey.

But Meigray was not the one running the auction. Legendary Auctions was.

They are to blame as it was 100% their auction, 100% under their control, 100% their call to arbitrarily extend one item in it, for whatever reason. In making the decision to extend it, once again the collecting community was spooned a heaping helping of the low scruples of the man running it, Doug Allen.

We are not idiots. The motives behind extending this auction and the justifications in doing so don't add up.

Let me jump to the chase. If I were buying the jersey, I would want absolute proof the garment was real before laying out monies equivalent to the down payment of a castle. But if I'm the bidder who placed the $175,000 bid on this jersey, I am already convinced of it's authenticity.

But NOW? The auction having unjustly been extended because of God only knows why, I'm just wiped off the podium, my justified significance as the winning high bidder erased, as I am left awaiting my "Doug Allen" unanaesthetised colonoscopy "upon further finding". Where is the fairness in that? Are all of you involved in this debacle, whether innocently or by choice really asking the collecting community to believe this "guy" who was the high bidder is OK with paying potentially $10's of thousands of dollars MORE, for added proof the jersey is legit?

Barry, I don't know if you personally are a collector, but if not, please trust me when I tell you part of the exhilarating fun of collecting is in the discovery. I realize this is a monumental piece and paying that price, one wants to be 100% sure, I GET IT. But let's be reasonable. The calling-off of the hammer total at the end was likely because someone wasn't happy with the result. There is no other reasonable answer. If you didn't prepare properly for your own auction and therefore aren't happy with the results, making the unprecedented call to simply screw the winner and extend it, just smells.

That's like Doug coming to a 10-pace gun fight with only three bullets in his gun, and after pulling the trigger hastily three times he finds his opponent standing there giving him the old toothless grin because all three shots missed. So as 'ol toot-less reaches down to pull his six-shooter out of the holster and "git his just RE-ward", Doug says "Um, wait, time out, gimme until December 15th to reload because I didn't come with a full gun, and dis ain't FAY-ER!"

Neither of these scenarios have much chance of ending well.

Sure, it's easy to claim that everyone wants the time to "do the right thing" and thoroughly discover all possible supporting evidence in light of the potential bonanza of it that just recently poured in from good samaritans and where-not in the hockey world. Of COURSE the consignor wants it. Of COURSE Doug wants it. It will do your company no harm in finding more supporting evidence as then you may be able to give it 100% authentication, rightfully adding another feather in your cap for the hobby world. But what about the guy who had it won? Something just.......smells.

Was there a guy who had it won? Because if that guy were me, Legendary would have already heard from my attorneys. You see, "good samaritans", an unhappy consignor, a shady auction house president, even you, Barry, if all of you come to me at the close of the auction and tell me "Hey, Chris, we really want you to be happy knowing what you're buying is the real deal, and ya know, we just aren't there yet. So please, take your $175K bid, put it on ice, and give us until mid-December. We'll have it 100% proven by then, we hope. Of course, there's always a chance by then based on what else we can conjure up you may have to pay more than DOUBLE for it at that point, but hey, solid authenticity is what it's all about, right?"

Do you know what I'd tell you at that moment?

Probably something close to what the high bidder should be telling all of you now. And the screaming silence of that scenario really leaves me feeling strange about that $175,000 bid. I'll leave it at that as I don't want this post deleted. I've worked too hard here trying to get my point across.

You did the responsible and professional thing by fairly authenticating the jersey to the best of Meigray's ability based on the available photographic evidence at the time the jersey went to auction. And to you and your companies credit, you issued appropriate authentication, one falling short of 100% confirmation due to lack of available photographic evidence of the back side of the jersey and/or clearer pictures of the jersey in general. In short, you've done everything exactly as we would all hope for and expect from a reputable authenticator, responsibly, thoroughly, and professionally, never compromising the quality of your "product" even under duress from forces that may try to influence you otherwise.

Your company offers a precious service to this hobby. I can appreciate fully that Meigray is not able to "pick and choose" where requests come from when your services are solicited. I can also appreciate that taking the middle road when situations like these appear is professionally the best and decent road for you to choose.

There are quite a few unsavory characters involved in this hobby. Many of us have been taken to the cleaners by them. So I trust you can appreciate our skepticism and conclusions drawn on mistrust as they rear their ugly heads on occasions that warrant them. Even when they do, still we must be held to higher standards and not make accusations against potentially innocent parties, even though history and the FBI have shown us our suspicions are well within reason. We follow rules of law, as the unsavory others do their best to sidestep them while seeking undeserved riches. It's unsettling when it's happening on your block.

That is my best shot at an apology back at you. Thanks for all you do for our hobby. We greatly appreciate it.

Chris

[ChrisCavalier]

Re: Legendary Auctions

Hi everybody,

I apologize if any of you mistook my first sentence as "chastisizing." I did not mean it that way. I only meant it as a direct response to the speculation of who was responsible for the auction being delayed and extended.

MeiGray has always appreciated comments and criticism and discussion of facts known and things we do.

I will add that in knowing Barry personally, that has been my experience with him. That is, Barry has always responded to questions and has tried to keep collectors informed when information is requested.

Thank you Barry for taking the time to explain the situation and I hope you will continue to keep us apprised of the situation.

Sincerely,
Chris

[BarryMeisel]

Re: Legendary Auctions

Hi everybody,

I apologize if any of you mistook my first sentence as "chastisizing." I did not mean it that way. I only meant it as a direct response to the speculation of who was responsible for the auction being delayed and extended.

MeiGray has always appreciated comments and criticism and discussion of facts known and things we do.

The purpose of my post was to explain what has happened, and what is happening.

We will continue to do so regarding this situation.

Respectfully,

Barry

[BVC]

Re: Legendary Auctions

It was good to hear Barry's additional explanation, but he shouldn't have led with that first sentence. Auction houses should welcome discussion and speculation - it's good feedback for improvement.

'No discussion' means nobody cares, which means fewer future consignments of big items.

[ShaimOnYou]

Re: Legendary Auctions

Hi everybody,

Please stop the incorrect speculation. None of it is correct.

MeiGray issued registration for this jersey after Legendary asked us to authenticate it.

As our letter of registration clearly stated, we believe the jersey is matched to the photo referenced. But in our letter we stopped short of calling this a conclusive photo match because of the quality of the photo ...

We then received more information from a variety of sources, including collectors and other in the hockey collecting community. We reached out to reference sources to try and find the original photo we had used for the potential match, and learned that it might be in an archive and available for closer review.

Each source was eager to assist with information in an attempt to ascertain of the photo match could be proven conclusively, or if new research information could help us with our registration.

MeiGray recommended to Legendary that our research needed more time, something we should have said even before we received additional information from the hockey collecting community. That was our mistake, and one we felt we could correct in the context of collectors and potential bidders requesting more information and a clearer determination of whether this jersey has been conclusively matched.

MeiGray recommended that the additional information could assist in potentially proving the photo match.

MeiGray requested that the auction be extended.

Legendary agreed that it would be in the best interests of everybody, including the bidders and the consignor, to let MeiGray continue its research based on the new information that was offered after we issued our original registration.

We understand that speculation and rumors and innuendo come with the territory. But the fact is that the hockey collecting community, including the bidders who have already bid and some who had asked for more conclusive information on this jersey before they choose to bid or not bid, want more exhaustive research done.

So does the consignor. So does Legendary. So does MeiGray.

Respectfully,

Barry

I agree with Roady.

Barry,

I think it takes a lot of gonadinal fortitude to come on here and chastise us collectors for your "mistake". We draw our conclusions based on the vast knowledge we have from our years of dealing with all the characters in the hobby, your company and you being in the mix.

I, for one, don't feel our "speculation" was all that far off the mark. Maybe we didn't hit the exact reason on the nose, but we did the best we could under the public info given. I even posted exactly what Legendary put out as the reason.

You actually expect us to believe the top bidder at $175,000 wanted the auction "extended"? Laughable. No. It's all about you guys blowing your own horn and maximizing dollars and exposure on the jersey. The fact you didn't get it together before the piece was auctioned off was disgraceful.

In regards to the extent of research, ALL of you on the auction side of the business are to blame for putting this jersey out without exhaustive research COMPLETED. So please don't come out here on your high horse and tell us the way we should be, or what we should stop. We make an educated decision based on all the facts we have at our disposal, and most of us know exactly what's going on. You guys? You just make up your rules as you go along, with no governing board to see that you are following any special "rules".

Now I suppose you're going to come back on here and tell us the urgency to get the jersey to auction was because of "extenuating circumstances out of our control", namely that your clients are all off to go do time in some form of prison.

And that's more laughable than anything. Good day, sir.

Chris

[Roady]

Re: Legendary Auctions

Should have sold it to the high bidder after the auction ended and not extended it.
The bidders were bidding on the auction that was listed not some other more comprehensive auction that may come along later.
Doing the right thing is easily identified by most people.

[BarryMeisel]

Re: Legendary Auctions

Hi everybody,

Please stop the incorrect speculation. None of it is correct.

MeiGray issued registration for this jersey after Legendary asked us to authenticate it.

As our letter of registration clearly stated, we believe the jersey is matched to the photo referenced. But in our letter we stopped short of calling this a conclusive photo match because of the quality of the photo ...

We then received more information from a variety of sources, including collectors and other in the hockey collecting community. We reached out to reference sources to try and find the original photo we had used for the potential match, and learned that it might be in an archive and available for closer review.

Each source was eager to assist with information in an attempt to ascertain of the photo match could be proven conclusively, or if new research information could help us with our registration.

MeiGray recommended to Legendary that our research needed more time, something we should have said even before we received additional information from the hockey collecting community. That was our mistake, and one we felt we could correct in the context of collectors and potential bidders requesting more information and a clearer determination of whether this jersey has been conclusively matched.

MeiGray recommended that the additional information could assist in potentially proving the photo match.

MeiGray requested that the auction be extended.

Legendary agreed that it would be in the best interests of everybody, including the bidders and the consignor, to let MeiGray continue its research based on the new information that was offered after we issued our original registration.

We understand that speculation and rumors and innuendo come with the territory. But the fact is that the hockey collecting community, including the bidders who have already bid and some who had asked for more conclusive information on this jersey before they choose to bid or not bid, want more exhaustive research done.

So does the consignor. So does Legendary. So does MeiGray.

Respectfully,

Barry

[Roady]

Re: Legendary Auctions

Roady,

Collectors going after museum pieces like this, assuming we're talking about one that is proven to be authentic, can't play the noble card when they appear.

Charles Manson could be selling it, and if you're a collector and you WANT it because it's the gaping void white whale of your hockey collection, you're going to go after it.

That said, I do appreciate your position and support where your "heart" is.

Everyone makes a choice.

[ShaimOnYou]

Re: Legendary Auctions

I wouldn't let them make a dime off of me even if it is photo matched.

Roady,

Collectors going after museum pieces like this, assuming we're talking about one that is proven to be authentic, can't play the noble card when they appear.

Charles Manson could be selling it, and if you're a collector and you WANT it because it's the gaping void white whale of your hockey collection, you're going to go after it.

That said, I do appreciate your position and support where your "heart" is.

[ShaimOnYou]

Re: Legendary Auctions

I guess I did it again. (holding head down in shame)

I posted here and admin has deleted my post. I apparently made a few (joking) references that included references to fraud. I'm going to leave out the funny stuff and try to carefully get my one point across by posting it again, in a much cleaned-up version. Even in fun, it's easy to break the rules of the forum and that was not my intention. Thanks for understanding, admin.

Attempt #2.

Has anyone thought about the fact there is supposed to be a bidder out there who has placed a bid and, under the rules of the auction house as printed in their own words, WON this jersey for $175,000, but has been denied his win because principals of Legendary auctions decided that wasn't enough?

I mean, where is the outrage from this bidder? He rightfully won the jersey! And NOW they're going to nix his bid and do more research while they extend the auction to hopefully get more for the jersey??

Does anyone find what these pricipals did to be wrongful to the point it may elicit legal action from the bidder who was in position to win against Legendary Auctions?

[BVC]

Re: Legendary Auctions

Sucks to not be able to edit posts here, but to elaborate on my first sentence above - I'm just saying that the $175K bid possibly reflects positive bidder confidence, not that such confidence is well-founded. After all, it only takes two bidders.

[BVC]

Re: Legendary Auctions

Your link led to another Gretzky rookie sweater that Classic auctioned back in 2005, almost exactly nine years ago:

http://www.classicauctions.net/Default.aspx?tabid=263&auctionid=23&lotid=23

That jersey was consigned by an Oilers employee of the day who had owned it since acquiring it directly from the team all those years ago. The final bid was $126,365.00.

Many will say that the current $175,000 bid is more than reasonable considering the strength of today's market, blah blah blah... And I agree with that opinion too. 175K plus commission is some nice cash.

If the $175K was reasonable, perhaps the photo-matching provided, was as well.

Oddly, I was reminded yesterday that a lot of collectors don't completely understand what photo-matching even means. A younger collector named Brock, who apparently participates here, didn't understand that it's not just about marks. Odd threads, stitching, positioning of hand-applied decals, etc., can also be used for photo-matching. The photo-matching might not be perfect, but if there is solid provenance it might be enough. From what I can tell, there is nothing on the Gretzky jersey to photo-match except some smudges that, as others have mentioned, could easily be added to a jersey.

[commando]

Re: Legendary Auctions

Here is a link to some of those replica's.

http://www.classicauctions.net/Defau...ey&closed=true

Your link led to another Gretzky rookie sweater that Classic auctioned back in 2005, almost exactly nine years ago:

http://www.classicauctions.net/Default.aspx?tabid=263&auctionid=23&lotid=23

That jersey was consigned by an Oilers employee of the day who had owned it since acquiring it directly from the team all those years ago. The final bid was $126,365.00.

Many will say that the current $175,000 bid is more than reasonable considering the strength of today's market, blah blah blah... And I agree with that opinion too. 175K plus commission is some nice cash.

[Phil316]

Re: Legendary Auctions

Here is a link to some of those replica's.

http://www.classicauctions.net/Default.aspx?tabid=546&keywords=1979+gretzky+jersey&closed=true

[ShaimOnYou]

Re: Legendary Auctions

If I am looking to sell a legit item like a Gretzky first year in the NHL, 2nd with the Edmonton Oilers why would you not go big and get Classic Auctions or Goldin Auctions. I know both Classic and Goldin do a great job advertising and I know legendary does not. Seems weird.

Also in the past few years I have seen 3 or 4 reproductions come up for auction with the correct tagging, numbers, fight strap everything.

I have no knowledge of this, but that's what I'm talking about.

Without a photo-match of the back of the jersey, maybe the big bidders are staying clear because they can't be certain this isn't a "repo" with added game use done really well to match the photos?

Of course we're speculating as to what the problem is, but obviously the bidders aren't satisfied with what they've been offered for authenticity (easy for me to say as I'm not the one who bid $175,000. That's one heck of a LOT of faith when you stop and think about it, but it still doesn't make the jersey authentic if it's not).