MLB/team shilling?

[sherbal15]

Re: MLB/team shilling?

I have spoke with MLB and they want to look into this issue. Please provide me all user names you suspect of schill bidding, I will report to them and let you know the outcome.

Thanks

Cardsgurl16 - this is the only one I can confidently question at this point.

[jbean023]

Re: MLB/team shilling?

I have spoke with MLB and they want to look into this issue. Please provide me all user names you suspect of schill bidding, I will report to them and let you know the outcome.

Thanks

[danesei@yahoo.com]

Re: MLB/team shilling?

Looks like NEWYORK25 is reading the posts........currently bidding on the Wacha jersey listed for auction. Funny, I don't see cardsgurl16 "interested" in the newest stuff on auction.....

Maybe enough people complained about that account, and it was suspended. Maybe cardsgurl16 is on vacation or at work today. We aren't privy to this information, so we can't really assume anything.

[danesei@yahoo.com]

Re: MLB/team shilling?

The items are shilled to the point where the next bid triggers the reserve price. The items are getting sold at an artificial price

The reserves are consistently getting met. Check the history of "recently closed items" on the team page. Go to the recently closed/ended auctions where reserves are met. See whose name appears throughout (cardsgurl16) so there is no confusion).

You're the one who introduced the question of supposed shills bidding up to the reserve, but not triggering it. In the scenario you originally were complaining about, since no sale was affected, there would be no recourse against the seller. (4) indicates that the winning bidder, if they can prove the seller shill bid, would be given the option of purchasing at the price created by the last legitimate bid or giving up the item. If your supposed shills only bid up to below the reserve, then it's irrelevant. The buyer would need to prove that the highest losing bid was a shill bid in order for the UCC to be considered.

[sherbal15]

Re: MLB/team shilling?

I was going to add I quit looking at items due to bidding by NEWYORK25 and MTC and others, so sorry maybe I'm wrong.
Then I gave up long ago on NFL Auctions, think the name was like Steadynitenson? I was run up by 45 plus bids on a Niners jersey and saw it happening on all the other team players, but that was a year plus ago.

Looks like NEWYORK25 is reading the posts........currently bidding on the Wacha jersey listed for auction. Funny, I don't see cardsgurl16 "interested" in the newest stuff on auction.....

[BirdsOnBat]

Re: MLB/team shilling?

That being said, I just looked through the CardsGurl bids for the last few months and I agree they lean towards the beliefs of the original poster and would be worth a message to the team if someone was so inclined.

[BirdsOnBat]

Re: MLB/team shilling?

Really? Who is going to know if I go home(or to a friend's), make an mlb auction account, and then start bidding.

No one is going to know unless I tell someone.

Hundreds of independent auditors review every detail of every piece of business the club conducts. It just takes one metric being reviewed to throw a red flag. I'm sure they review the bid histories of their auctions and the personal information associated with those accounts in order to leverage the specific interests of those customers.

It's possible no one notices, sure, but again, it's not like it's a guy in a basement calling himself an auction house with no accountability.

[johnsontravis@ymail.com]

Re: MLB/team shilling?

The info would get back to management in an organization as big as that one. There are assistants to the assistant's assistant. Someone will notice.

Really? Who is going to know if I go home(or to a friend's), make an mlb auction account, and then start bidding.

No one is going to know unless I tell someone.

[BirdsOnBat]

Re: MLB/team shilling?

These auctions are run by people making a very modest middle class wage. If their contract renewal is based off how much they sell things for or what their auctions look like I'd think one would be VERY motivated to schill.

The info would get back to management in an organization as big as that one. There are assistants to the assistant's assistant. Someone will notice.

[danesei@yahoo.com]

Re: MLB/team shilling?

What idiot would bid on any item where the seller is allowed to bid on their own item? If you have a list of auction houses that disclose this info please forward it on. That might actually be useful information.

I used to feel the same way, but I found when dealing with rare coins, sometimes you have to deal with auctions that allow that, or you just never get the coins you want.

[sherbal15]

Re: MLB/team shilling?

...This is why I keep saying it's pointless to talk about "shill" bidding in reserve price auctions where the reserve price is unmet.

The reserves are consistently getting met. Check the history of "recently closed items" on the team page. Go to the recently closed/ended auctions where reserves are met. See whose name appears throughout (cardsgurl16) so there is no confusion).

What idiot would bid on any item where the seller is allowed to bid on their own item? If you have a list of auction houses that disclose this info please forward it on. That might actually be useful information.

[danesei@yahoo.com]

Re: MLB/team shilling?

To remove any further confusion, here is the actual language of the current version of the UCC, as it applies to auctions:

Uniform Commercial Code › U.C.C. - ARTICLE 2 - SALES (2002) › PART 3. GENERAL OBLIGATION AND CONSTRUCTION OF CONTRACT
§ 2-328. Sale by Auction.
(1) In a sale by auction if goods are put up in lots each lot is the subject of a separate sale.

(2) A sale by auction is complete when the auctioneer so announces by the fall of the hammer or in other customary manner. Where a bid is made while the hammer is falling in acceptance of a prior bid the auctioneer may in his discretion reopen the bidding or declare the goods sold under the bid on which the hammer was falling.

(3) Such a sale is with reserve unless the goods are in explicit terms put up without reserve. In an auction with reserve the auctioneer may withdraw the goods at any time until he announces completion of the sale. In an auction without reserve, after the auctioneer calls for bids on an article or lot, that article or lot cannot be withdrawn unless no bid is made within a reasonable time. In either case a bidder may retract his bid until the auctioneer's announcement of completion of the sale, but a bidder's retraction does not revive any previous bid.

(4) If the auctioneer knowingly receives a bid on the seller's behalf or the seller makes or procures such a bid, and notice has not been given that liberty for such bidding is reserved, the buyer may at his option avoid the sale or take the goods at the price of the last good faith bid prior to the completion of the sale. This subsection shall not apply to any bid at a forced sale.

So, even in the event where the auction didn't disclose the right to bid, thereby enacting (4), recourse only exists to the buyer. If the reserve is never met, there's no buyer to seek recourse. This is why I keep saying it's pointless to talk about "shill" bidding in reserve price auctions where the reserve price is unmet.

[danesei@yahoo.com]

Re: MLB/team shilling?

Im surprised so many on here think that any shill bidding anywhere is ok because there is a reserve. That makes zero sense. Also just because an auction may say in small print that they may do it does that make it ok. Its like cheating on your taxes and writing on the 1040 in small print "I cheated"

Not exactly. According to the UCC, it's explicitly stated that auction houses can bid on their own items, so long as they disclose it in advance. As for the reserve concern, I don't understand why anyone cares what price an auction ends at when the reserve isn't met. I think that's why I personally don't care. It's like those people who put items for sale on eBay with $100k reserves, simply because they never intend to sell and want to advertise their own stores. Since a transaction never occurred, whatever price the item didn't go for is somewhat irrelevant, if not entirely irrelevant.

[seanbaseball]

Re: MLB/team shilling?

Im surprised so many on here think that any shill bidding anywhere is ok because there is a reserve. That makes zero sense. Also just because an auction may say in small print that they may do it does that make it ok. Its like cheating on your taxes and writing on the 1040 in small print "I cheated"

[danesei@yahoo.com]

Re: MLB/team shilling?

My understanding and reading of the law is that shilling is generally viewed as illegal under the UCC unless one of the following two conditions are met:

1) Disclosure. If the auction house indicates prior to the start of the auction (possibly in the Terms and Conditions of being a bidder) that they may bid on the seller's or auction house's behalf, then it has been disclosed. This is legal.

2) Reserve Auctions. This isn't as clear, but reserve auctions are auctions where the seller can withdraw the item for any reason. In the case of a reserve price auction, the reason is bidding doesn't reach the reserve price. If a transaction never occurs due to reserve conditions not being met, then no fraud has occurred.

Shill bidding is Fraud and is absolutely illegal:

https://www.addleshawgoddard.com/www...parent_id=2439

It is illegal in most, not all, cases. In the situation described by sherbal, it doesn't seem any fraud has occurred, since no transaction occurred, and therefore no loss was realized. Also, that site is a private attorney's website. Even the wording in the text related to shilling is that it's probably illegal. It's not definitive, since that's an interpretation of the UCC and recent changes. Only a judge can really define what's illegal or not.

The only people using mlb auctions as the "go to" for market value is the teams store. So when you call about buying something they can point to the their latest auction prices as justification. So when you say "that pete Kozma jersey is not even worth $175" the response you'll get is "check our latest auction". The great koz just brought $585!

Reserve or not, the practice of shilling is dishonest. Not sure if it technically is illegal or not. Again, if I were a cardinal fan bidding on anything I would stay away from anything with a reserve. The reason it even made it to auction is because no one in the "regular customer" list wants to pay the quoted price, which is most likely the reserve price on the auction. Since nobody wants to pay the price it goes to auction and is shilled to point of "just prior to" going over the reserve price. This justifies the price to the "regular customer" and creates a false market for the item entirely.

Again, the reserve is of substantial relevancy when determining whether shilling has occurred. If the reserve isn't met, no transaction has occurred.

These auctions are run by people making a very modest middle class wage. If their contract renewal is based off how much they sell things for or what their auctions look like I'd think one would be VERY motivated to schill.

I disagree with the above comment. If my contract were based upon sales in MLB auctions, I'd do everything in my power to ensure items sold. The scenario described by sherbal15 attempts to implicate individuals in shill bidding items BELOW the reserve price. The other implication is that the reserves are above the actual market value for the items. Those actions (setting an absurdly high reserve; shill bidding below the reserve price) don't seem congruent with generating sales.

As I said, I'd do everything in my power to ensure items sold. I wouldn't shill bid without prior disclosure.

Now, this brings up a different question...

eBay's rules prohibit shill bidding. Since eBay claims to be a marketplace, as opposed to an auction house, what would happen if a seller explicitly stated in their auction that they reserve the right to bid on their own behalf to increase an item's selling price? I'm sure that they'd be banned from eBay, but legally speaking, would buyers be surrendering the right to recourse by bidding in the auction and assuming the terms are accepted and binding?