Who's the bigger villian: Rose or Bonds?

[staindsox]

Re: Who's the bigger villian: Rose or Bonds?

To my mind, this is really a stretch. What you're saying, in effect, is that Rose might have hurt his team by trying too hard to win certain games, potentially and in theory causing his team to lose certain other games, resulting in...what? A losing season? Would he have made enough money gambling on those games to have compensated him for getting fired for being a losing Manager? If I were a team owner, I wouldn't give a damn for any Manager of mine who wasn't willing to bet his own money on the team he helmed.

Bonds is not only the bigger villain by a wide margin, he's the worst thing to happen to Baseball in living memory.

It's exactly the point and you missed it. Why didn't he bet on his team every day if he really thought they would always win? The days he didn't bet, in essence, he thought they would lose. As a manager, Rose had control over whether he won OR LOST. At least Bonds always tried to win. John Dowd, the special prosecutor in the Rose case, was convinced he could have proven that Rose bet AGAINST his team too, but Rose signed a document to ban himself from baseball and end the investigation. I hate Bonds, but at least he cheated to always win...we can't say the same with Rose and none of us can say for sure. The person who knew the most about it, Dowd, thinks he DID bet AGAINST the Reds too.

Also, for the record, they did win a World Series in 1990, the year after they dumped Rose, so they must not have sucked that much.

[Rob L]

Re: Who's the bigger villian: Rose or Bonds?

Ty,

Interesting point re: whether Bonds took steroids before baseball made them illegal or after (and Bonds is innocent until proven guilty, shoe size not taken into consideration ). One thing that this whole steroid thing has been bugging me is the fact that so many think that it was ok until they were banned by MLB. No one seems to remember that distributing or using steroids (without a VALID perscription) was a felony offense prior to the MLB making them illegal. If the Feds had ever looked into this, many a player may have been carted off before MLB's sanctions.

I can't wait for the Mitchell report to come out. It will be very interesting to see how things wash out. It should be coming out any time.

Take care,

Rob L

[OaklandAsFan]

Re: Who's the bigger villian: Rose or Bonds?

LOL Bonds didn't cheat to win ballgames he cheated to pad his stats and make himself better than the "white boy" that was getting more press than him. He is less of a team player than Arod ever was or will be.

[bigjimsguitars]

Re: Who's the bigger villian: Rose or Bonds?

Part of addiction is the denial, ergo, he lied (Rose). Barry knowingly and with intent, injected substances that gave him an unfair advantage to break records and if I recall correctly LIED about it.

Bonds is the biggest Villain and it ain't even close. At the same time, the owners, trainers and all those who aided and abetted the Bonds of the game are also responsible and accountable and they too need to be brought forward to be slogged.

[tym]

Re: Who's the bigger villian: Rose or Bonds?

Ty,

Interesting point re: whether Bonds took steroids before baseball made them illegal or after (and Bonds is innocent until proven guilty, shoe size not taken into consideration ). One thing that this whole steroid thing has been bugging me is the fact that so many think that it was ok until they were banned by MLB. No one seems to remember that distributing or using steroids (without a VALID prescription) was a felony offense prior to the MLB making them illegal. If the Feds had ever looked into this, many a player may have been carted off before MLB's sanctions.

I can't wait for the Mitchell report to come out. It will be very interesting to see how things wash out. It should be coming out any time.

Take care,

Rob L

Rob, I have thought about the prescription card, hoping it wouldn't get played in this debate

I don't know, roids are a drug and drugs have known to make people do things they wouldn't normally do (like any other addiction - note to Big Jim), maybe at this trial Barry will find that old prescription paperwork he forgot to mention at the last grand jury inquiry and all will be okay

Both screwed up....and in the end both tainted the game and thus both will be part of the great debates along with Shoeless Joe Jackson and his crew long after we are dust.

Cheers,
Ty

[Rob L]

Re: Who's the bigger villian: Rose or Bonds?

Ty, I do believe you are right. We are definitely living through one of the defining moments in baseball and this will be talked about long after we are dust. Definitely an interesting time and it does create lively debates

Rob L

[Carlevv]

Re: Who's the bigger villian: Rose or Bonds?

Its hard to say who's the bigger vilan. Who's to say Pete never did anything? Im sorry but you dont play that hard for that long and not take painkillers, amphetimines so on and so forth. Common sense would indicate that. Steroids are performance inhancing just as any other drug out there including HGH, painkillers, and amphetimines. How many pitchers did Bonds go deep off of that were on some kind of drug or using pine tar to doctor the ball. Thats cheating too.........

[David]

Re: Who's the bigger villian: Rose or Bonds?

Say you're manager every game and and can bet on every game. If you bet on your team to win some games, that means the other games you are essentially betting that your team will lose. Besides-- and it's a big besides-- John Dowd has said he believes Rose bet against the Reds.

[ahuff]

Re: Who's the bigger villian: Rose or Bonds?

I've only read a portion of the posts. So my answer may have already been covered.

I am a person that did not like either player during any portion of their career. I only say that, so that you know that I am not a fan of either.

At this point, I would say that Bonds is the bigger Villian. Both were great players long before their disasterous decisions. Rose was wrong in betting on baseball. He was wrong for not confessing it. He was right in finally admitting to it. Bonds was wrong for taking steroids. He was wrong for lying to people about it. He has not confessed.

Just a side point. I believe that if convicted, the Commish should remove his eligibility for the Hall of Fame. Shoeless Joe and Pete both had to suffer for their wrongs. In addition, the Hall has set specific guidelines to follow.

Rule #5 states it clearly. Character is to play a role in the voting process.

http://web.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers/rules.jsp

[bigjimsguitars]

Re: Who's the bigger villian: Rose or Bonds?

Frankly, I'm amazed that some can just miff it all off that Bonds used steriods and justify it away, well others are also, and other cheat, that's the era we are in and, so forth and whatever.

Hey I guess integrity is not an issue.....

[godwulf]

Re: Who's the bigger villian: Rose or Bonds?

Another angle: If Bonds is banned from Hall of Fame consideration, or if it even appears that he will be, that would not bode well for Rose's chances for enshrinement...simply because MLB would want to avoid any perception or charge that they were being "racist" in permitting Rose to be so honored, while denying it to Bonds.

I believe that the majority of fans have been expecting - and rightly so - that Rose would get in sometime in the near future...but if Bonds is banned, Rose is probably screwed.

[bigjimsguitars]

Re: Who's the bigger villian: Rose or Bonds?

Let's add a little perspective to this. How many of us have ever placed a bet, even if a gentleman's bet?

How many newspapers carry the "Morning Line", e.g., betting line?

Okay, how many of us have injected steroids or other performance enhancing substances that were not legally prescribed?

It's sad that there are those who can say, well it's what everyone in sports is doing and say it's not so bad. Sorry, but I will never agree to such thinking as it erodes the integrity of the game as well as us as a people.

I personally hope that Barry Bonds be made the poster boy of why it's bad to shoot-up steroids so all of the aspiring young players will see that it's not the way to go...let alone the risks to one's health.

It's not too late for Barry Bonds to become a great person and leader by admitting what he has done and then use is star power to go to the youth and tell them first hand why it was the worst decision or thing he has ever done and become the role model he could be.

I also agree that Barry Bonds should be banned from Baseball and never step foot into the Hall of Fame as it stands right now.

Again, it's all of the owners, commissioners, managers, trainers and whoever, who turned a blind eye to all of this (trust me, Barry is only the tip of the iceberg) who also need to be brought forward and flogged.

Baseball is a perfect game and doesn't need to be juiced to be made better and at some point temptation will be thwarted and once again the game will be played by those who have respect for it and be played the way it's supposed to be...maybe even in my lifetime.

[joelsabi]

Re: Who's the bigger villian: Rose or Bonds?

i think somewhere up in each locker room is a sign about no betting so I with Rose.

[tacprc]

Re: Who's the bigger villian: Rose or Bonds?

This is no brainer. Bonds is the bigger villian. He cheated in order to give himself an advantage over his competitors, to increase his fame, and to increase his wealth. He should be kicked out of the game along with all the other steroid users. Chuck Lumb, Pete Rose fan, Chicago

[jwasserman]

Re: Who's the bigger villian: Rose or Bonds?

who coud hate this face?


seriously though- noboby played harder than rose or loved the game of baseball more. it's a shame that he's been villified so much (though i understand why). he's a victim of his own demons. bonds is a victim of his own selfish ego