Marion Jones = Barry Bonds??

[kingjammy24]

Re: Marion Jones = Barry Bonds??

Do you think Rickey Henderson was clean? he played in his 40's and he was associated with the A's of the late 80's early 90"s.

so using this logic, i guess you believe nolan ryan and julio franco also juiced it? both of them played into their 40s and both played on the 1993 rangers team with canseco, palmeiro, gonzalez, and rodriguez. david wells, schilling, and biggio also played into their 40s.

as he aged, rickey's stats and performance noticeably declined, unlike bonds.

rudy.

[David]

Re: Marion Jones = Barry Bonds??

You can selectively remove stats if you know the player illegally cheated to get them. If the player is proven guilty, it's neither here nor there whether you can prove a different case against different players. If there are 10 cat burglars and the DA has damning evidence against only 2, he doesn't dismiss all 10 cases. He proceeds with the 2 cases he has damning evidence. That one player can get away murder doesn't mean everyone should get away with it.

[cohibasmoker]

Re: Marion Jones = Barry Bonds??

I think you missed my point. I'm saying that there is nothing that can be done. While I think it stinks and I think that cheaters tarnish the game, there isn't anything you can do after the fact. My premise is based on the fact the some want to remove Bonds from the record books. My point is that you can't selectively go in and remove some records and not others. Giambi was an admitted user long before Bonds, and you can't go in and take Giambi's 2 HR's off the board and award the Red Sox the 2003 ALCS Championship. Although, they probably deserve it based on the effect of the "cheaters" premise.

And yes, if it did come out that Manny or Papi was using during the 2004 season, I do think it would diminish to a great degree their World Series Championship.

I totally agree with you. Everyone has to be treated equally and fairly - no exceptions. If evidence proves that a player used steroids and they did not have a medical reason for using them, oh well.

Maybe and I stress "maybe", the main problem facing MLB today is that some of the biggest names in the game "may" be implicated. If this is true, MLB has a serious public relations problem. No-one can convince me that MLB actually cares about the game nor their fans.

Jim

[mwbosoxfan]

Re: Marion Jones = Barry Bonds??

You can selectively remove stats if you know the player illegally cheated to get them. If the player is proven guilty, it's neither here nor there whether you can prove a different case against different players. If there are 10 cat burglars and the DA has damning evidence against only 2, he doesn't dismiss all 10 cases. He proceeds with the 2 cases he has damning evidence. That one player can get away murder doesn't mean everyone should get away with it.

I'm not much of a debater, so bear with me here. But, I'm assuming from your cat burglar illustration that all of their crimes or capers are all somehow interrelated? Because everthing in baseball has a cause and effect relationship. If you selectively remove HR's from the record book, what happens to the pitcher's records who served them up?

Not to beat this 2003 ALCS with Giambi into the ground (and yes, I am scarred for life), but he is guilty as charged. He may not have a grand jury perjury charge hanging over his head, but his baseball "crimes" are just as serious as anyone else who affected the outcome of games by using PED's.

Marion Jones was stripped of her medals and so were her teammates according to what someone else wrote earlier on this thread. I assume the next in line were awarded their respective medals and moved up in place. So with that logic in place, since Giambi has admitted he used (same as convicted), the 2 HR's from Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS shall be stricken from the records. The Red Sox are now declared the ALCS Champions, and they have to play the Marlins on a Play Station II 2003 version of Slugfest, which I have done and know for a fact that the Red Sox won. Now, the disheartening thing is that Josh Beckett has to give up his MVP award and give it to Pedro Martinez. Holly Crap!

The point is that you can't go re-writing the record books in baseball. Everything in the books balance. Maybe...and I say maybe with much skepticism, that maybe the only thing would be to put asterisks by proven tainted records. Good luck, because before it is all said and done, for a pretty good period of time the whole darn book might be an asterisk.

[yanks12025]

Re: Marion Jones = Barry Bonds??

I want to add something on your statements about his 2 home runs. Lets say he never hit those 2 home runs, we dont know what could have happened. Yankees could have come back in the 9th, red sox's could have won(YEAH RIGHT), maybe the red sox's never win the world series in 2004 or 2007. We don't know?

[David]

Re: Marion Jones = Barry Bonds??

With Marion Jones, nearly all track officials say you have to remove here personal records/results/medals for events where she cheated. However, there is active debate with what you do with the other runners and relays. For example, in an individual race where Jones won, some would say the silver medals should move up to the gold, while others say the gold she be left vacant. With relays, some say the relay order should stand, while others say the whole team should be removed.

Notice that, while there is debate over how to deal with the interrelations of other athletes and teams, there is unanimity amongst the debaters that Jones should not be allowed to keep her wins and records. While they know that any solution will be imperfect, they know the biggest imperfection would be if a proven drug user was allowed to keep her wins, records and medals.

[mwbosoxfan]

Re: Marion Jones = Barry Bonds??

I want to add something on your statements about his 2 home runs. Lets say he never hit those 2 home runs, we dont know what could have happened. Yankees could have come back in the 9th, red sox's could have won(YEAH RIGHT), maybe the red sox's never win the world series in 2004 or 2007. We don't know?

You're making my point. YOU CAN'T GO BACK AND UNDO WHAT HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE!! To with what certainty and to what degree did Giambi's use of PED's help him hit those 2 HR's? I can't tell you. Nobody can. Did he cheat to gain an advantage? Probably. Did they help him hit homeruns? Probably. Those 2 HR's? WE DON'T KNOW! So you, me, or even Bud Selig sure as heck can't go pull them from the records. Maybe put a better way is that you can't change history, you can only quanitify it. What you just described is why we can't go back.

I'm using Giambi's situation similar to Bond's. In that while we think without a "Shadow" of a doubt that Bonds used PED's, we know Giambi actually did. So, if you eliminate Barry's records from baseball once convicted, you have to follow suite everywhere else that train takes you. Savvy?

[mwbosoxfan]

Re: Marion Jones = Barry Bonds??

Notice that, while there is debate over how to deal with the interrelations of other athletes and teams, there is unanimity amongst the debaters that Jones should not be allowed to keep her wins and records. While they know that any solution will be imperfect, they know the biggest imperfection would be if a proven drug user was allowed to keep her wins, records and medals.

David, that is an excellent point, seriously. Everything in baseball scorekeeping virtually balances with each other, and basically all the stats and records are generated from the scorekeeping. So, I don't have a solution either. You may have just swayed me to the other side. I think we should strip Giambi's HR's and get the Red Sox another World Series Championship!

[yanks12025]

Re: Marion Jones = Barry Bonds??

I say with bonds stats that we wipe them clear out of records, meaning he still has his numbers but hes not on the homer list, rbi's list, none of these. I think this is how we should do it.

[Carlevv]

Re: Marion Jones = Barry Bonds??

If Barry Bonds hit 780 HR's ill guess that at least 500 of those pitchers were also on something. If it wasnt steroids it was amphetimine or painkiller. 500 may be a low number by the way.

[David]

Re: Marion Jones = Barry Bonds??

Actually, there is a somewhat (I said somewhat) comparable situation in sprints in track. For a race to count as a World's Record, the recorded wind speed at race time has to be below the a certain amount. They actually have someone measuring the wind speed before every race. If the back wind is too fast, the race is perfectly legal, the 1-2-3 sprinters get their medals and no one's considered a cheater. However, there can be no World's Record. So, in track and field, allowing a race with the fastest ever time ever recorded to stand but not listing the time as the World's Record is common.