Mitchell Report - Clemens * vs. Bonds *

[kingjammy24]

Re: Mitchell Report - Clemens * vs. Bonds *

just wanted to add that some people feel that the 1991 edict and it's subsequent 1997 re-issuance doesn't pass muster because it wasn't included in the collecting bargaining agreement at the time. that is to say, the player's association didn't formally recognize and agree with it. (big surprise). players may have felt that the only baseball rules they were bound by were those stated in the CBA. this is a stupid idea though because steroids were against federal law and previous experience had shown that if a player was indicted on federal drug charges, they would likely be suspended by the MLB anyway.

however, given that there was no formal testing policy in the CBA, i'm sure many in baseball felt that their hands were in tied in terms of a course of specific action. that said, at a minimum, fay vincent did say that in 1991, according to the MLB, steroids are forbidden. obviously, noone took it seriously.

here's a list of MLB drug suspensions. over a dozen before 1995 alone:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2000/0228/387204.html

rudy.

[whatupyos]

Re: Mitchell Report - Clemens * vs. Bonds *

You're right, I had forgotten about Howe and Straw...Fergie was wayyyy before my time. Reading the Mitchell report, I didn't even know Vida Blue spent time in prison...but again, wayyyy before my time. I'm glad MLB is working to clean up the sport. But whats in the past is in the past. People make mistakes. Baseball is a funny game. Juan Marichal took a bat to a player, and isn't he in the Hall?? Pete Rose gambled and he is not in the Hall, though I believe he should be....how is gambling worse than attempted murder??? Shoeless Joe got caught up in the Black Sox scandal, he hit .375 in the series, have 0 errors and hit the only HR of the series?? So how he he's not in the Hall and was banned in the scandal is beyond me! Personally I think the players/coaches should vote for the Hall. They are the only ones who should vote in my opinion. Too many writers would hold a biased.

[TNTtoys]

Re: Mitchell Report - Clemens * vs. Bonds *

Now, here is where this all gets interesting (Rudy, thanks for bringing up Fergie Jenkins).

Jenkins was arrested in 1980 during a routine customs search. He was found to be in possession of:

3 grams of cocaine

2+ grams of hashish

nearly 2 grams of marijuana

Jenkins was suspended indefinitely.

Jenkins later was reinstated, and ultimately inducted into the baseball hall of fame.

So, my question... steriod users... blatent offenders of the drug policy as was Mr. Jenkins. There is a great deal of debate as to whether they should enter the hall of fame. Isn't a precedent set here???

Nick

[kingjammy24]

Re: Mitchell Report - Clemens * vs. Bonds *

"Isn't a precedent set here???"

not entirely. steroids inflate stats more than cocaine or marijuana would. mantle could get drunk and take a few greenies in plain view and then step up to the plate and noone would think he was cheating per se. if anything, he was probably at a disadvantage from the hangovers. steroids are another matter. unlike steroids, cocaine or marijuana don't aid in recuperation nor do they make one physically stronger or faster.

i believe the writers might try to somehow ascertain to what degree a players accomplishments were acheived via steroids. the thing is, i don't believe it's possible to suss such a thing out. how can you objectively figure out how many of those homers would've been doubles or fly balls if not for steroids? all you can do is look at a players career prior to steroid use. if canseco is to be believed, mcgwire started juicing it from the get-go. in that case, he didn't have much of a career to examine prior to steroids.

if there is a precedent set in regards to this issue, i believe it was with the writer's reaction when mcgwire first became eligible for the HOF. 500HRs was supposed to be an automatic lock. apparently, not anymore. if 500HRs isn't a lock anymore, then neither is 300wins or 3000hits. it seems as if the writers are willing to disregard such numbers if they believe they weren't acheived honestly.

rudy.

[whatupyos]

Re: Mitchell Report - Clemens * vs. Bonds *

Rudy-

Two things...You said cocaine doesn't make one stronger or faster? Man, how does Tyronne Biggums lift that bus to get that quarter under the tire??!! (If you've never watched The Chapelle Show, you wouldn't get my joke there). Crack heads are pretty darn fast man!!!!

In regards to the steriods comment with you hinting that Mac started using from the get go with Canseco. Canseco isn't totally 100% believable. Didn't he say in his book about shooting up with Giambi and Mac (which would be 1997 probably since that was when they all played together last), but Giambi in the report said he didn't start using until 2001. So there is something missing there. I think I'll believe Giambi since Canseco isn't the most believable cat in the world.

[frikativ54]

Re: Mitchell Report - Clemens * vs. Bonds *

Now, here is where this all gets interesting (Rudy, thanks for bringing up Fergie Jenkins).

Jenkins was arrested in 1980 during a routine customs search. He was found to be in possession of:

3 grams of cocaine

2+ grams of hashish

nearly 2 grams of marijuana

Jenkins was suspended indefinitely.

Jenkins later was reinstated, and ultimately inducted into the baseball hall of fame.

So, my question... steriod users... blatent offenders of the drug policy as was Mr. Jenkins. There is a great deal of debate as to whether they should enter the hall of fame. Isn't a precedent set here???

Nick

The difference here is that pot and hash and cocaine don't enhance your performance the way steroids do. He was using drugs for his own personal pleasure. Now the Rocket was specifically using steroids to improve his on-field performance. The same is the case for Bonds and his use of both 'roids and HGH. There's no doubt that he never would have broken McGwire's 70 or have 762 career HR if he had never used performance enhancing drugs. Whether or not Jenkins had done the other stuff, his efforts were unrelated to his drug use.