Biggest HOF Snub

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  • ahuff
    Senior Member
    • Nov 2005
    • 677

    Biggest HOF Snub

    Yesterday's HOF vote got me thinking. Who do you believe is the biggest HOF snub?

    I think it comes down to 4 guys: Rice, Dawson, Blyleven, and Smith. My personal belief is that it has to go to Bert Blyleven or Lee Smith. My reasoning is this.

    Though I'm a Cub fan, I was never a big fan of Smith. That being said, Lee Smith was great, and no one would be wrong for saying he should be in. Personally, I believe he deserves in more than Goose. But perhaps that goes back to the hanging pitches that taunted this Cub fan during Goose's days in Chicago. Smith held the saves record until Hoffman came along. Guys like Wilhelm, Quisenberry, and Fingers certainly were the early guys to begin to change how the closer was used. I believe Lee made the position what it is today. I don't understand how you can vote in the #17 saves leader and the #21 guy, but not the #2. I believe it just goes to show how ignorant the election system is.

    Jim Rice - Played 16 seasons, which might be his biggest downfall. Had he been able to play another good 3 seasons, one would have to assume that he would be much closer to critical numbers 500 and 3000. Instead he comes in with 2,452 hits and 382 home runs. His career .298 average is great. Though there was a noticeable dip in statistics during that last 3 year period. Perhaps this indicated that the elusive numbers would never have been achieved.

    Andre Dawson - Fell short of critical numbers 500 HR (438) and 3000 Hits (2774). He did this in an era where other guys did accumulate these statistics. I don't truly believe he is a HOFer.

    Bert Blyleven - Fell short of 300 Wins by a mere 13 (287). But was well over the 3,000 K level (3,701) and had a career ERA of 3.31 during a span of 22 seasons. He is #5 in all-time strikeouts. Guys like Jim Palmer, Robin Roberts, and Bob Feller are all behind him in the wins list. However, they are all in. How can he not be in?
    "We need rebirth of the American tradition of leadership ... in private life as well." "'Trust me' government asks that we concentrate our hopes and dreams on one man; that we trust him to do what's best for us. My view of government places trust not in one person or one party, but in those values that transcend persons and parties. The trust is where it belongs--in the people." - Ronald Reagan"


    http://www.freewebs.com/chrishwish/
  • Vintagedeputy
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2005
    • 3172

    #2
    Re: Biggest HOF Snub

    Bleyleven, easily

    Comment

    • skyking26
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2005
      • 2457

      #3
      Re: Biggest HOF Snub

      Blyleven and Smith easily. While I have great respect for the sluggers, their numbers are short...
      ROBERT KOPPEL
      Skyking26 - 35 year collector of Dave Kingman memorabilia. Also seek 500 HR and 3000 Hit GU Bats,
      and 1968, 1984, HOF Tigers GU Bats...Skyking442@hotmail.com

      Comment

      • G1X
        Senior Member
        • Nov 2005
        • 1076

        #4
        Re: Biggest HOF Snub

        Marvin Miller by far.

        Mark Hayne
        Gridiron Exchange
        gixc@verizon.net

        Comment

        • ahuff
          Senior Member
          • Nov 2005
          • 677

          #5
          Re: Biggest HOF Snub

          Marvin Miller

          That is a good point. I've thought he should have been in years ago. He certainly has changed the face of the game, though financially not statistically. I think that snub came from the newly redesigned veterans committee. Not that it makes too much of a difference.
          "We need rebirth of the American tradition of leadership ... in private life as well." "'Trust me' government asks that we concentrate our hopes and dreams on one man; that we trust him to do what's best for us. My view of government places trust not in one person or one party, but in those values that transcend persons and parties. The trust is where it belongs--in the people." - Ronald Reagan"


          http://www.freewebs.com/chrishwish/

          Comment

          • suave1477
            Banned
            • Jan 2006
            • 4266

            #6
            Re: Biggest HOF Snub

            DARRYL STRAWBERRY!!!!

            ILL EVEN VOTE TWICE FOR HIM LOL LOL

            Comment

            • 5kRunner
              Senior Member
              • Aug 2007
              • 560

              #7
              Re: Biggest HOF Snub

              I think Blyleven is probably the biggest snub. But I think Smith gets in before he does. And they both deserve it.

              The thing I hate about the Hall of Fame voting is the fact that once a guy reaches one of the magical numbers (500 HR, 3000 Hits, 300 Wins), he sails in. If a player falls a little short, he struggles to get votes.
              SCOTT
              scottjrepking at gmail.com


              Always looking for game used bats from Andre Dawson, Ryne Sandberg, Mark Grace, Jody Davis, Shawon Dunston, Jerome Walton, Rick Sutcliffe, and Greg Maddux. Preferably CUBS era bats.
              sigpic

              Comment

              • byergo
                Senior Member
                • Feb 2006
                • 333

                #8
                Re: Biggest HOF Snub

                In the NFL: Derrick Thomas by a landslide. Greatest pure speed rusher of All Time, records galore both NFL and collegiate, NFL Man of the Year great community figure in KC, tons of Pro Bowls, one of the biggest Defensive impact players of all time who had to be game planned for--the offense had to know where DT was at all times. So many turnovers, the "Called Safety" vs Oakland, the "KC Strip" move, etc...

                Comment

                • misteremu
                  Senior Member
                  • Nov 2005
                  • 174

                  #9
                  Re: Biggest HOF Snub

                  Rusty Staub!! A top fifty'ish for many all-time records.

                  Also played on some of the crappiest teams in his prime known to mankind! Plus, used to cook up a mean plate-ful of ribs in New York City!

                  *Over 2,700 hits, 53rd all-time
                  *292 career home runs
                  *.279 lifetime average
                  *1,466 RBI's, 50th all-time
                  * 43rd all-time with 1,255 walks
                  *47th all-time with 499 career doubles
                  *8th all time in Sac flies with 119
                  *37th all time for times on base
                  *6 time all star, with a .600 batting average over those 6 games.
                  *Batted .423 in his lone World Series appearance, .341 in two total post season appearances with a .683 slugging percentage in those two series
                  *One of the best pinch hitters later in his career

                  Comment

                  • reed1216
                    Senior Member
                    • Feb 2007
                    • 322

                    #10
                    Re: Biggest HOF Snub

                    Yesterday's HOF vote got me thinking. Who do you believe is the biggest HOF snub?

                    I think it comes down to 4 guys: Rice, Dawson, Blyleven, and Smith.
                    I think all four names on this list deserve HOF enshrinement. There's no question that Lee Smith was a dominating, intimidating closer. I don't think it's fair to say he's better than the Goose, but that's debatable. In my opinion, Smith continued the evolution of the role of the closer, but Gossage was one of the pioneers. Gossage has a slew of two and three inning saves and for a significant stretch of his career, was the most dominant pitcher in the bigs. Smith was a little more of a one inning specialist, albeit a Hall of Fame worthy one.

                    Blyleven's numbers shouldn't be ignored. His strikeout totals should get in serious consideration. However, the fact that he won 287 games pitching for mediocre teams pushes him over the top, in my eyes. The dominating curveball seals the deal for me. With that said, among these four, I would place him as the fourth most worthy candidate- still deserving of enshrinement though.

                    Rice and Dawson are more interesting. Without question, both were dominant players in their eras. Moreover, both won MVPs and were consistantly among the league leaders in several offensive catagories and each has an MVP award to their credit. What makes them HOF worthy, in my opinion, is the fear they put in the hearts of opposing players and fans.

                    I can't stand the Red Sox, but when Rice came to bat against my Yankees, I held my breath and watched. Sure, both he and Dawson, for the matter, fell short of many statistical milestones. But stats don't always tell the whole story. These guys were, are and always will be HOFers in my book. Had they played in the steroid/expansion era, they'd have reached those milestones and would already be in Cooperstown.

                    Comment

                    • David
                      Senior Member
                      • Jul 2025
                      • 1433

                      #11
                      Re: Biggest HOF Snub

                      I think it's hard to call it a snub when a player is still eligible and could very well be elected in in the near future. A few years ago people said Bruce Sutter was snubbed and he now resides in the HOF. Gossage was "snubbed" and is a Hall of Famer. Whether you're voted in in year 1 or year 7, you're just as much a Hall of Famer. In fact, you could field a heck of a team from people not elected in their first years (Anyone want Joe DiMaggio or Jimmie Foxx on their fantasy team?)

                      Comment

                      • chakes89
                        Senior Member
                        • May 2006
                        • 1706

                        #12
                        Re: Biggest HOF Snub

                        Dave Concepcion

                        If Ozzie Smith and Phil Rizzuto are HOFers, Dave Concecpcion is
                        I collect Jay Bruce and Cincinnati Reds Minor League stuff


                        My email address: hakes89@gmail.com

                        Comment

                        • Birdbats
                          Senior Member
                          • Nov 2005
                          • 1439

                          #13
                          Re: Biggest HOF Snub

                          Don't know if I'd call it the biggest snub, but Ted Simmons' lack of support is a major head scratcher. When you look at his numbers compared to catchers who already are in the HOF, it's hard to believe he didn't get enough votes to even remain on the ballot. Simmons ranks in the top 5 among catchers in 15 categories and in the top 10 in 17 categories. He excelled in reaching base, driving in runs and getting extra base hits... he was a switch hitter... and while he wasn't in Bench's class defensively, his fielding percentage of .987 was comparable to Fisk, Dickey and Campanella and better than the MLB average during Simmons' career. It'll be interesting to see what the veteran's committee does with Simmons. I wonder if anyone who didn't pull 5% of the writer's vote ever got elected by the vets?

                          Here's a good article that makes Ted's case:
                          http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...61/ai_88575158

                          HOW TED SIMMONS RATES WITH HALL OF FAME CATCHERS

                          RUNS

                          Carlton Fisk 1,276
                          Yogi Berra 1,175
                          Buck Ewing 1,118
                          Johnny Bench 1,091
                          Ted Simmons 1,074
                          Mickey Cochrane 1,041
                          Bill Dickey 930
                          Gabby Hartnett 867
                          Rick Ferrell 687
                          Roger Bresnahan 684
                          Roy Campanella 627
                          Ernie Lombardi 601
                          Ray Schalk 579

                          HITS

                          Ted Simmons 2,472
                          Carlton Fisk 2,356
                          Yogi Berra 2,150
                          Johnny Bench 2,048
                          Bill Dickey 1,969
                          Gabby Hartnett 1,912
                          Ernie Lombardi 1,792
                          Rick Ferrell 1,692
                          Buck Ewing 1,663
                          Mickey Cochrane 1,652
                          Ray Schalk 1,345
                          Roger Bresnahan 1,251
                          Roy Campanella 1,161

                          DOUBLES

                          Ted Simmons 483
                          Carlton Fisk 421
                          Gabby Hartnett 396
                          Johnny Bench 381
                          Bill Dickey 343
                          Mickey Cochrane 333
                          Rick Ferrell 324
                          Yogi Berra 321
                          Ernie Lombardi 277
                          Buck Ewing 237
                          Roger Bresnahan 222
                          Ray Schalk 199
                          Roy Companella 178

                          HOME RUNS

                          Johnny Bench 389
                          Carlton Fisk 376
                          Yogi Berra 358
                          Ted Simmons 248
                          Roy Campanella 242
                          Gabby Hartnett 236
                          Bill Dickey 202
                          Ernie Lombardi 190
                          Mickey Cochrane 119
                          Buck Ewing 66
                          Rick Ferrell 28
                          Roger Bresnahan 26
                          Ray Schalk 12

                          RBI

                          Yogi Berra 1,430
                          Ted Simmons 1,389
                          Carlton Fisk 1,386
                          Johnny Bench 1,376
                          Bill Dickey 1,209
                          Gabby Hartnett 1,179
                          Ernie Lombardi 990
                          Buck Ewing 883
                          Roy Campanella 856
                          Mickey Cochrane 832
                          Rick Ferrell 734
                          Ray Schalk 596
                          Roger Bresnahan 531

                          BATTING AVERAGE

                          Mickey Cochrane .320
                          Bill Dickey .313
                          Ernie Lombardi .306
                          Buck Ewing .303
                          Gabby Hartnett .297
                          Ted Simmons .285
                          Yogi Berra .285
                          Rick Ferrell .281
                          Roger Bresnahan .279
                          Roy Campanella .276
                          Carlton Fisk .269
                          Johnny Bench .267
                          Ray Schalk .253

                          GAMES CAUGHT

                          Carlton Fisk 2,226
                          Rick Ferrell 1,806
                          Gabby Hartnett 1,793
                          Ted Simmons 1,771
                          Johnny Bench 1,742
                          Ray Schalk 1,727
                          Bill Dickey 1,708
                          Yogi Berra 1,699
                          Ernie Lombardi 1,544
                          Mickey Cochrane 1,451
                          Roy Campanella 1,183
                          Roger Bresnahan 974
                          Buck Ewing 636

                          FIELDING AVG. AS CATCHER

                          Listed are each catcher's career
                          fielding average (FA) as a catcher
                          and the average fielding percentage
                          for catchers during his
                          career--League Fielding Percentage
                          (LPCT)

                          Catcher FA LPCT

                          Johnny Bench .990 .987
                          Yogi Berra .989 .987
                          Bill Dickey .988 .982
                          Roy Campanella .988 .984
                          Carlton Fisk .988 .986
                          Ted Simmons .987 .986
                          Mickey Cochrane .985 .980
                          Rick Ferrell .984 .982
                          Gabby Hartnett .984 .978
                          Ray Schalk .981 .971
                          Ernie Lombardi .979 .980
                          Roger Bresnahan .971 .968
                          Buck Ewing .931 .906
                          Jeff Scott
                          birdbats@charter.net
                          http://www.birdbats.com

                          Comment

                          • harpt
                            Senior Member
                            • May 2007
                            • 694

                            #14
                            Re: Biggest HOF Snub

                            Jeff,

                            As you know, I couldn't agree more.
                            Scott Harpt
                            scott_harpt at yahoo dot com
                            Always seeking Cecil Cooper, Ben Oglivie, and Gorman Thomas

                            Comment

                            • earlywynnfan
                              Senior Member
                              • Oct 2005
                              • 1271

                              #15
                              Re: Biggest HOF Snub

                              Originally posted by chakes89
                              Dave Concepcion

                              If Ozzie Smith and Phil Rizzuto are HOFers, Dave Concecpcion is
                              The problem with that mentality is it lets all kinds of people in. We can go on forever with these type of comparisons. If Catfish Hunter is a HOFer, so is Luis Tiant. If Rube Marquard is a HOFer, so is Mel Harder. If Lefty Gomez is a HOFer, so is Carl Mays. Or, to link to another thread, if Kirby Puckett is a HOFer, so is Don Mattingly.

                              We can't use past mistakes as reasons to put in more mistakes, even if the second group is better than the first.

                              Instead of comparing someone on the outside to someone on the inside, I think you need to just focus on the outside player: Was he the best at his position for his generation? Did he revolutionize his position? Was he elite??

                              Rice and Belle were the most feared sluggers of their time. Blyleven won more games than most, had a fantastic ERA, and had one of the best curveballs ever. Sutter and Gossage, when the came in, the game was over! (Gossage actually hung on too long, fostering feelings like the Cubs fan has.) Minnie Minoso could beat you with a very rare (for the era) power and speed combination, and that's after racism took at least a half dozen years off his career. If Rickey Henderson took up football, Tim Raines would be known as the all-time greatest baserunner.

                              Ken

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