The Worst Sort of Greed?

[aeneas01]

i'm not sure what's worse - those that try to pass off fake items as authentic or those that try to pass off authentic items as something their not by creating elaborate stories about the item and/or by providing yarns and false information about the item's provenance. frankly, i'm leaning towards the later because of the sheer greed involved. i mean it's not sufficient that the item is rare, already valuable and sure to fetch a solid price - no, the seller still feels the need to lie about it in an effort to collect even more money.

enter ebayer vintageksusports.

this guy is a an absolute piece of work. i know - i've dealt with him first hand and have busted him on more than one occasion. and he doesn't like it. heck, he's even emailed me threatening notes including the following:

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----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Scanlan

Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 9:36 PM
Subject: Re: Question for item #260047034019

I will tell you what buddy.........you have now started something that I am going to finish. Good luck to you and all your future auctions!

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well he's at it again - he currently has a vintage michigan clear-shell helmet listed on ebay that, according to his ebay ad, has no story that he's aware of and something he picked up a couple of years ago. this is interesting because the last time he had it listed he had quite a story and had picked it up 12 years ago.....


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----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Scanlan
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 7:09 AM
Subject: Re: Question for item #260148960120

Good Morning:

Michigan & Atlanta Football helmets:

I got these two helmets at the same time and from the same person. I lived in Houston, Texas from 1993 to 1998. Back in 1995 I met a gentleman (John Rutherford) down there who owned one of the biggest Sports Bars in Houston. He and I became pretty good friends mainly because we both shared an enormous interest in vintage sports memorabilia... These two items were in storage along with an enormous amount of other stuff that he either had collected or had given to him. I know that he said that many of the game used items that he had were donated to the Sports Bar either by players or collectors who frequented his place. I never asked him where they came from, I just knew that they were authentic as soon as I saw them. So I have had these helmets for about 12 years now and I have decided to sell them to focus on my collection of Vintage Big 8, Big 7 and Big 6 Conference stuff. That is pretty much the story on these two helmets.

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his current listing with a buy it now price of $1.5k:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=260214936292&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=016

here it is when he had it listed in august of last year with a buy it now price of $5k. no takers - guess he decided to give it a face lift by swapping out the more valuable dungard mask for the two-bar, switching out the chinstrap and starting it at much lower buy it now price. fwiw, this is when he wrote me the fairy tale about its provenance quoted above....






and, finally, here it is when he purchased it on ebay in may of 2006 for $425. quite a helmet, eh? it morphs from something he picked up 12 years ago in a dusty saloon in texas to something with no story, to something that he actually picked up two years ago for $400 on ebay. go figure....






so, for the record, in the few years i've been watching this guy he has:

1. purchased a vinatge clear-shell delaware lid on ebay from a delaware grad and booster club member only to flip it around and relist it as a vintage michigan helmet (this was another helmet, not the one discussed above).

2. purchased a vintage clear-shell atlanta falcons child's helmet on ebay from a woman who listed it as a lid that once belonged to her husband which she said he wore when as a child when he played pop warner only to flip it around and relist it as a game used atlanta falcons helmet.

3. purchased a vintage clear-shell virginia tech helmet lamp on ebay only to flip it around and relist it as a game used lid without ever mentioning that it was once made into a lamp and therefore had a hole in the facemask and worn ventilation hole.

4. purchased a vintage clear-shell michigan helmet on ebay for $400 a couple of years ago yet told me an elaborate story about its provenance and that he's had it for 12 years, only to change the story again as well as the look of the helmet for his current listing.

the thing is, all of these helmets are very rare and valuable in their own right - yet that's not good enough for this guy. no sireee - he would rather lie and cheat for a few extra bucks. yep, i think this is worse.

[nyjetsfan14]

Re: The Worst Sort of Greed?

You're hired! That is some awesome detective work aeneas. It is disappointing what some will do to defraud their fellow man for the sake of a buck. With that said, the buyer should always be looking do be as informed as possible - both about sellers and their items. Anyhow, another great job, thanks for the continuous stream of valuable information.

God Bless America,
Matthew

[commando]

Re: The Worst Sort of Greed?

Can't you just let the buyers be happy with what they've purchased? Does it really matter that the Falcons helmet, for example, was worn by little Raymie Smith instead of Tommy Nobis?

Your research is awesome, by the way... All joking aside, collectors like you have brought much-needed accountability to the hobby. I thank you for that!

[suave1477]

Re: The Worst Sort of Greed?

aeneas I do not collect to much football equipment, but I am blessed to know we have a member like you aboard in case I ever do decide to go that route that your a great asset to this forum.

Beautiful detective work!!!!

[mwbosoxfan]

Re: The Worst Sort of Greed?

The Worst Sort of Greed?

I don't mean to change the direction of this thread, but I still believe the worst sort of greed is the situation where you make a deal with someone only to have them tell you they sold it to someone else, because they "got an offer they couldn't refuse".

This was recently the topic of another thread in which I made a comment something to the effect that I didn't feel that breaking an agreement or changing the conditionsin midstreamin order to take a better deal after the fact was ever justifiable. Bam! A few days later, it actually happened to me. I think greed in just about every form really stinks.

[sylbry]

Re: The Worst Sort of Greed?

That is some impressive work. Looks like the seller is pulling the old Mastro/Lou Lampson facemask switch trick.

This hobby is driven by greed in one form or the other. At the very least this hobby is about "accumulating stuff" and isn't that greed in and of itself?

Other examples I can think of:

1. Individuals knowingly misrepresenting items.
2. Individuals selling blantant fakes.
3. Individuals charging one person more for an item than they charge another person for that same item. (A individual consistently does this with me. Not ragging on the McGwire bat deal.)
4. Individuals offering an item at a very high price hoping people will throw them a high counter offer.
5. Individuals selling items as authentic because it could possibly be and it can not be proven elsewise.
6. Individuals flipping items.

In the end it is all about putting the most amount of money in their pocket at the expense of others. Most of the time I see this hobby/business as no different from used car sales. Lot's of stories, lots of excuses, lots of creative thinking in order to get the most money.

[TNTtoys]

Re: The Worst Sort of Greed?

I am with you on some of your examples, but have a little differing of opinion on a couple of others. I have additions too.

(unnumbered). The facemask switch trick.
1. Individuals knowingly misrepresenting items.
2. Individuals selling blantant fakes.
3. Individuals charging one person more for an item than they charge another person for that same item. (A individual consistently does this with me. Not ragging on the McGwire bat deal.)
4. Individuals offering an item at a very high price hoping people will throw them a high counter offer.
5. Individuals selling items as authentic because it could possibly be and it can not be proven elsewise.
6. Individuals flipping items.

My comments for whatever they're worth (though very little may apply to the actual topic of this thread) --

I feel most of this is wrong, but...

2. You do have the occasional seller who does not know what they are selling. They may have bought something that they no longer can afford to keep, and it is only then it is brought to their attention that what they're selling is not quite what they thought it was.

3. This is quite normal. Suppose you have 2 of the same item and you are selling to a. the one time only buyer and b. the buyer who continues to come back to you. Would you not offer a better deal to your steady customer? You do want his continued patronage, right? You also want to thank him in some way for continuously coming to you?
Or suppose you have bulk of an item -- would you not grant a discount to the guy who buys 12 items than the guy who buys just 1? After all, he is simplifying your business process. You will not need to work nearly as hard to make back your investment... time is $$$.

4. I come across this all the time. Basically, this is economics 101, or the law of supply and demand. A seller can charge anything they want for their item to whomever they want. The buyer clearly does not have to pay that cost. If this means that the seller cannot sell it, they will reduce their price to an amount that is reasonable to get the item sold. You all remember those $20,000 Matsuzaka jerseys that hit the market last year, right? Did any of them actually sell for that price?

6. A LOT of us "flip" items. For those of us on a tighter budget, it is the only way we can pay for having such an expensive hobby. If we have been fortunate enough to find a somewhat valuable item for cheap, and re-sell it, then applying the profit towards something we really want, where is the wrong-doing?

And my addition -- which is more of an extension to #6. Take the following scenario. You are surfing the ebay listings and find something valuable that the seller obviously doesn't know much about. He starts the listing at $9.99. You assess the value to be $300.00. You then write a note to the seller, offering him a "generous" $50.00 to end the auction early. He agrees, not knowing any better. You then resell it for $300.
In this case, you lied and cheated the seller out of money. It would have clearly sold for higher had it had the chance for completing auction. There is deceipt here and it's pretty low if you ask me. I cannot tell you how many "offers" I have received that really make me scratch my head.

Nick

[David]

Re: The Worst Sort of Greed?

If an otherwise fine item is misdescribed in a major way, it can be a fake. By definition, something is authentic if the description matches the identity. If the description and identity are significantly different, then it's often called fake. A forgery is an item that was intentionally made to be a fake and to fool the customer (ala counterfeit $20 bill).

One of my favorite cases of fakes were Ancient Greek statues displayed in the British Museum in London. After about a century, the museum realized the statues were fakes-- they really were copies of Greek statues made by the Ancient Romans! They are still ancient, priceless and on display, but they had to be relabeled. Once the museum relabeled them, they were no longer fakes, as the description and identities matched.

[sylbry]

Re: The Worst Sort of Greed?

I am with you on some of your examples, but have a little differing of opinion on a couple of others. I have additions too.




My comments for whatever they're worth (though very little may apply to the actual topic of this thread) --

I feel most of this is wrong, but...

2. You do have the occasional seller who does not know what they are selling. They may have bought something that they no longer can afford to keep, and it is only then it is brought to their attention that what they're selling is not quite what they thought it was.

3. This is quite normal. Suppose you have 2 of the same item and you are selling to a. the one time only buyer and b. the buyer who continues to come back to you. Would you not offer a better deal to your steady customer? You do want his continued patronage, right? You also want to thank him in some way for continuously coming to you?
Or suppose you have bulk of an item -- would you not grant a discount to the guy who buys 12 items than the guy who buys just 1? After all, he is simplifying your business process. You will not need to work nearly as hard to make back your investment... time is $$$.

4. I come across this all the time. Basically, this is economics 101, or the law of supply and demand. A seller can charge anything they want for their item to whomever they want. The buyer clearly does not have to pay that cost. If this means that the seller cannot sell it, they will reduce their price to an amount that is reasonable to get the item sold. You all remember those $20,000 Matsuzaka jerseys that hit the market last year, right? Did any of them actually sell for that price?

6. A LOT of us "flip" items. For those of us on a tighter budget, it is the only way we can pay for having such an expensive hobby. If we have been fortunate enough to find a somewhat valuable item for cheap, and re-sell it, then applying the profit towards something we really want, where is the wrong-doing?

And my addition -- which is more of an extension to #6. Take the following scenario. You are surfing the ebay listings and find something valuable that the seller obviously doesn't know much about. He starts the listing at $9.99. You assess the value to be $300.00. You then write a note to the seller, offering him a "generous" $50.00 to end the auction early. He agrees, not knowing any better. You then resell it for $300.
In this case, you lied and cheated the seller out of money. It would have clearly sold for higher had it had the chance for completing auction. There is deceipt here and it's pretty low if you ask me. I cannot tell you how many "offers" I have received that really make me scratch my head.

Nick

Hi Nick,

I appreciate your comments.

My response is below.

3) I am actually a returning customer. The seller charges me more because he knows I am a collector of the specific items he sells and expects me to pay more for the item. Seems counterintuitive but it is happening.

4) Yes it is definately economics at work. However the seller is not free from being considered greedy.

6) Flipping drive me nuts. And I know we all do or have done it. I have done it twice and felt bad both times. (Not in the hobby to make money.) By flipping you are basically building a collection using other people's money. If you don't want it then don't buy it in the first place. Why screw someone else out of a good deal.

Case in point. Yesterday I saw a Soriano bat on ebay with a BIN of $350. I could have purchase it at that price and made money on the sucker I sell it to. However I let it go. I don't need the bat. I don't need to be a pointless middle man. Why not let someone who wants a Soriano bat get it at that good price.

6a) I agree. Lowballing someone in order to screw them out of money simply to pad your own pockets is deceitful. Yes the seller may be happy with the price you gave him but he would have been even more happy if he waited for all of the bids to come in. I have taken the approach of emailing the seller asking him to notify me of any "buy it now" offers saying I would like a chance to counter. There truely is nothing worse than having an auction end only to have that seller email you asking you if you would like to buy it for more money.

And again, why not just let the "player A" collector win the bat and be happy in getting a good deal. Anytime the "flipper" (middleman) gets involved it just is screwing the end purchaser out of money. I think that is greed at one of the highest levels.

These are my opinions and I certainly expect others to disagree. I just felt like posting because the initial post was simply scratching the surface of the level of greed in this hobby/business.

[TNTtoys]

Re: The Worst Sort of Greed?

Flipping drive me nuts. And I know we all do or have done it. I have done it twice and felt bad both times. (Not in the hobby to make money.) By flipping you are basically building a collection using other people's money. If you don't want it then don't buy it in the first place. Why screw someone else out of a good deal.

...

These are my opinions and I certainly expect others to disagree. I just felt like posting because the initial post was simply scratching the surface of the level of greed in this hobby/business.

This is a good topic, so I don't mind keeping the thoughts flowing.

On "flipping" -
Here are a couple of different angles:

Take for example...

Item "X" is for sale on ebay. It's being sold by someone who really does not have the time to invest on a quality listing. He takes 1 or 2 photos of his item, writes a 2-line description. Answers questions about the item abruptly with 1 or 2 words.
Bids come in accordingly, and I win the item in the end for roughly $50.00 less than I think I can sell it for.
I then invest my time putting together a quality listing for it. I take many photos, with a handful of close-ups. I thoroughly research the item. I describe the item with in-depth information including a narrative of the player. I also spend time and care answering prospective customers.
In the end, I make $50.00.
I feel that I worked to earn my $50.00. I simply was not a middle man; I was a salesman who believed in his product and took the time and care with it that ti deserved.
Did I "flip it"? Yes. Did I earn my "commission"? You better believe so.

After all, for me, this is about earning extra cash on the side to finance some items that I want to collect but otherwise couldn't afford. In my books, not a whole lot different to "working overtime."

And suppose for one minute the buyers are not out there that week. I possibly can lose money or break even -- and I invested my time and put some of my money at risk to do so.


But I did keep your other quote here too for a reason. I too believe that there is a level of greed in this hobby, as is with most things out there. I feel that if you approach this (whether buying, selling, etc.) with ethics and honesty, you still stand to make a few dollars towards those collectibles you want.


-Nick