2009 HOF Class

[AWA85]

Re: 2009 HOF Class

Say what you want about the DH, it has been around since 74 and differentiates itself from the NL that way. I hate watching a pitcher bat, it's just one of those controversial subjects.

We must agree to disagree, I love watching Bronson Arroyo jack one out on the Cubs!

[redoctober]

Re: 2009 HOF Class

Bottom line to me is where did the player stand amongst his peers in the same era? Nothing else should matter.

To me, Larkin was amongst the best in his era. Would i take jeter, ARod, etc now?? Yes, but Larking was among the best at the time.

Using the best of era method would include some steroid era players though -- ie (Clemens, Bonds, etc). Personally, I would be tighter with a vote during this time frame, but how do you exclude Clemens or Bonds?? Pre-steroids, they were the best!

Without "best of era" status, how will any pitchers be admitted going forward?? Once The Big Unit reaches 300, nobody else will. Is it fair to use only numbers??? In this example,clearly not.

Also, way too much bias is given to longevity. Dominance in a specific timeframe is the key to me, not total numbers.

[Nathan]

Re: 2009 HOF Class

i am curious...why do you think thurman munson has never been elected to hall of fame? he basically played 10 seasons, was an all-star for 6, won an mvp award, has the post season accomplishments. he was dominant at his position for the time he played. he died at age 32, he still had at least 4-5 good years left. addie joss only played 9 years when he died but he is in the hof. sandy koufax played 12 years and out of the 12 he had 6 good years and he is in the hof. growing up a cleveland indians fan i hate the yankees, but i just do not get that one.

take care
john

(Black ink) / (Gray Ink) / (HOF Monitor) / (HOF Standards)

The average catcher in Cooperstown is 3.4/65.8/122.3/34

Munson is 0/48/89.5/20.9
Ted Simmons is 0/95/124.5/38.9

Now, if you throw out the catchers who really shouldn't be there (Schalk, Ferrell, and Bresnahan), the average score adjusts to 4.2/80.7/141/37.9

Munson's career was on the downswing as it was, and his knees and back were disintegrating. He might have played another three years and then DHed, but he wasn't a good enough hitter to DH.

For me personally, the first criteria for inducting someone would be "Is he the best player at his position not in the Hall?" I think, among eligible players, that would be Ted Simmons. A case could be made for Torre, but he spent an awful lot of time in the field as well.

[cohibasmoker]

Re: 2009 HOF Class

Mark McGwire, stigmatized by accusations he used performance-enhancing drugs, received just 118 votes (21.9 percent) in his third year of eligibility, down from the 128 votes he got in each of his first two tries.


Jim

[momen55]

Re: 2009 HOF Class

what about oldie but goodie manny sanguillen? he had good numbers and was a good hitter too? he is a good friend and it is a shame he didn't get in.

[joelsabi]

Re: 2009 HOF Class

I liked Bagwell, but he has no chance. Neither does Larkin. I think Dawson deserves to be in before Rice.

its about the position they played. you gotta put in mattingly before bagwell among other first basemans. maybe dawson has a chance now with Rice in and Dawson eligibility running out. Look at Rice getting in when his eligibility was at the maximum attempts allowed.

[joelsabi]

Re: 2009 HOF Class

Can your candidate pass the 15 question that Bill James proposed below? anyways its an interesting read imho.



In a book written about the Hall of Fame, in 1994, Bill James predicted that Jim Rice would be inducted along with Mike Schmidt into the Hall in 1995. He has a list of a series of subjective questions which he uses to try to figure out how worthy a candidate is. Here is the list:

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?
--Yes! He won an MVP, Hank Aaron stated he thought Rice had the best chance of hitting 755, and there were several magazine articles with titles such as "The Case for Jim Rice - Why He's the Greatest", "Jim Rice - The Best in Baseball" and others. So, I would say that for a period of time, he was regarded, at least by some, as the best player in baseball.
2. Was he the best player on his team?
--During his career, he was a teammate of several stars including Yaz, Fisk and Perez, who are already in the Hall (and later Boggs, and Clemens who will get in) as well as other deserving players such as Dewey Evans, Luis Tiant, and more. Nonetheless, although some of the others may have had better careers overall, I believe, at his peak, Rice was the best player on the Red Sox.
3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?
--Yes! His MVP, and AP all star selections, show that certain years he was regarded as such. In fact, most lists of the best players of his era, will include very few if any other leftfielders.
4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?
--Well, not too many. Him and Fred Lynn certainly led the team to the pennant in '75, and without him, not as many people would remember Bucky Dent, as Boston would have been nowhere close to the Yankees in 1978. He had an MVP-type season again in 1986 when Boston next made a playoff appearance, but credit for that has to go to the Roger Clemens-led pitching staff.
5. Was he a good enough player that he could continue to play regularly after passing his prime?
--Well, depends on definition of prime. If his prime is considered when he was at his peak from 1977-1979, he certainly had some great years long after that. In 1986 at the age of 33, he still managed 200 hits, 110 RBIs and a .324 BA, while continuing to field well. However, he dropped off sharply after that, and by 1989 hit .234 and so no action in the field.
6. Is he the very best player in baseball history who is not in the Hall of Fame?
--No. There are several other very worthy candidates that the Hall has passed up. I don't want to mention any, because I don't want to insult someone I miss from the list. But it's not a large list, 5-8 players max. On the other hand, just about every year, they let in players that are not as deserving as Rice.
7. Are most of the players who have comparable career statistics in the Hall of Fame?
--There are not a lot of players with very comparable stats. Orlando Cepeda has similar numbers, and he is in.
8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?
--Yes. He meets 43% of the Hall of Fame standards. The standards are set so that the average scores 50%. 60% of all players who have met 40% or more of the standards are in. (For comparison, Cepeda met 37, Perez 39)
9. Is there evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his stats?
--I don't think so. A case could be made that he played in a hitter's park which inflated his numbers. But I don't believe that is enough to say he was significantly worse.
10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame but not in?
--Yes. Looking at Hall of Fame standards numbers, the left-fielders who come closest to Rice are Bob Johnson and Al Oliver. Mike Greenwell was the only other left-fielder on this year's ballot. Enough said.
11. How many MVP-Type season did the player have? Did he ever win an MVP?
--He won the MVP in 1978, and had 5 other MVP type seasons, as judged by his number of top 5 finishes.
12. How many all-star type seasons did the player have? How many ASG did he play in?
--He was voted or selected to play in the game 8 seasons. Looking at his yearly statistics, I would say he probably got in on his reputation in 1980, but did deserve to be named the other 7 years.
13. If this man were the best on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennat?
--YES. No doubt a team with Rice as its star could win the pennant. Many teams with lesser stars have won.
14. What impact did he have on baseball history?
--Nothing significant comes to mind.
15. Did he uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character?
--Tough to answer. Many media people did not like him, and found him to be uncooperative. He did almost punch his 57 year old manager, when he was pinch hit for. Well, one minor incident shouldn't affect his reputation (think George Brett - most fans still remember him - rightly so - as a nice guy.). He is certainly not at the same low level of character as several recent stars (I don't want to bad-mouth anyone, so the names previously listed here have been removed). Remember the incident where he saved a child's life. That alone shows more about his positive character, than being snotty to some pushy sportswriters.

[bigtruck260]

Re: 2009 HOF Class

The DH is fine - as long as it is exclusive to the American league. The pitcher making a sacrifice (or in cases like Owings, Zambrano and Wainwright - going deep) is exciting to me. It probably produces just as many runs as a DH who hits .230 and flies out to end an inning.

Bagwell - Excellent player. IF he would have had 4 more years at 30 HR 90+ RBI - he's in. He still may get in, but I wouldn't bank on it Frik.

There are TONS of players that define greatness in baseball (it is a nod to how good they are just to be in a MLB uniform) - but guys like Andres Gallaraga, Vinny Castillo, Ken Boyer, Steve Garvey, Dwight Evans, etc. that are awesome to watch, and have great numbers - but won't make the hall because you don't usually put them in an essay about greatness the way you do Rickey Henderson, Cal Ripken, Tony Gwynn, Willie Mays and Nolan Ryan....

[cjclong]

Re: 2009 HOF Class

There is a difference between great players and very good players and I think we are starting to get some very good players in the HOF as opposed to great ones. Of course there will be an argument as to whether a player is great or just very good. If we particularly like a player we tend to view him as great. I think some players are getting in because the sports writers feel they need to vote someone in every year even if there is no one who meets the great category. I think a number of players being mentioned are very good players, all star players, but they don't meet the final step to an all time great player.

[Nathan]

Re: 2009 HOF Class

Bill James also said in the "New Historical Abstract" that Rice:

-- Ranks #27 among left fielders, behind a few guys who will never get in
-- Was "probably the most overrated player of the last thirty years"

[Nathan]

Re: 2009 HOF Class

its about the position they played. you gotta put in mattingly before bagwell among other first basemans. maybe dawson has a chance now with Rice in and Dawson eligibility running out. Look at Rice getting in when his eligibility was at the maximum attempts allowed.

Mattingly is basically Cecil Cooper or Wally Joyner with the extra "pinstripe aura". Neither of them will ever come close, and although Mattingly's glove helps, I don't think it's enough.

Bagwell I'd vote for in a heartbeat.

[mwbosoxfan]

Re: 2009 HOF Class

Can your candidate pass the 15 question that Bill James proposed below? anyways its an interesting read imho.



In a book written about the Hall of Fame, in 1994, Bill James predicted that Jim Rice would be inducted along with Mike Schmidt into the Hall in 1995. He has a list of a series of subjective questions which he uses to try to figure out how worthy a candidate is. Here is the list:

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?
--Yes! He won an MVP, Hank Aaron stated he thought Rice had the best chance of hitting 755, and there were several magazine articles with titles such as "The Case for Jim Rice - Why He's the Greatest", "Jim Rice - The Best in Baseball" and others. So, I would say that for a period of time, he was regarded, at least by some, as the best player in baseball.
2. Was he the best player on his team?
--During his career, he was a teammate of several stars including Yaz, Fisk and Perez, who are already in the Hall (and later Boggs, and Clemens who will get in) as well as other deserving players such as Dewey Evans, Luis Tiant, and more. Nonetheless, although some of the others may have had better careers overall, I believe, at his peak, Rice was the best player on the Red Sox.
3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?
--Yes! His MVP, and AP all star selections, show that certain years he was regarded as such. In fact, most lists of the best players of his era, will include very few if any other leftfielders.
4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?
--Well, not too many. Him and Fred Lynn certainly led the team to the pennant in '75, and without him, not as many people would remember Bucky Dent, as Boston would have been nowhere close to the Yankees in 1978. He had an MVP-type season again in 1986 when Boston next made a playoff appearance, but credit for that has to go to the Roger Clemens-led pitching staff.
5. Was he a good enough player that he could continue to play regularly after passing his prime?
--Well, depends on definition of prime. If his prime is considered when he was at his peak from 1977-1979, he certainly had some great years long after that. In 1986 at the age of 33, he still managed 200 hits, 110 RBIs and a .324 BA, while continuing to field well. However, he dropped off sharply after that, and by 1989 hit .234 and so no action in the field.
6. Is he the very best player in baseball history who is not in the Hall of Fame?
--No. There are several other very worthy candidates that the Hall has passed up. I don't want to mention any, because I don't want to insult someone I miss from the list. But it's not a large list, 5-8 players max. On the other hand, just about every year, they let in players that are not as deserving as Rice.
7. Are most of the players who have comparable career statistics in the Hall of Fame?
--There are not a lot of players with very comparable stats. Orlando Cepeda has similar numbers, and he is in.
8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?
--Yes. He meets 43% of the Hall of Fame standards. The standards are set so that the average scores 50%. 60% of all players who have met 40% or more of the standards are in. (For comparison, Cepeda met 37, Perez 39)
9. Is there evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his stats?
--I don't think so. A case could be made that he played in a hitter's park which inflated his numbers. But I don't believe that is enough to say he was significantly worse.
10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame but not in?
--Yes. Looking at Hall of Fame standards numbers, the left-fielders who come closest to Rice are Bob Johnson and Al Oliver. Mike Greenwell was the only other left-fielder on this year's ballot. Enough said.
11. How many MVP-Type season did the player have? Did he ever win an MVP?
--He won the MVP in 1978, and had 5 other MVP type seasons, as judged by his number of top 5 finishes.
12. How many all-star type seasons did the player have? How many ASG did he play in?
--He was voted or selected to play in the game 8 seasons. Looking at his yearly statistics, I would say he probably got in on his reputation in 1980, but did deserve to be named the other 7 years.
13. If this man were the best on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennat?
--YES. No doubt a team with Rice as its star could win the pennant. Many teams with lesser stars have won.
14. What impact did he have on baseball history?
--Nothing significant comes to mind.
15. Did he uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character?
--Tough to answer. Many media people did not like him, and found him to be uncooperative. He did almost punch his 57 year old manager, when he was pinch hit for. Well, one minor incident shouldn't affect his reputation (think George Brett - most fans still remember him - rightly so - as a nice guy.). He is certainly not at the same low level of character as several recent stars (I don't want to bad-mouth anyone, so the names previously listed here have been removed). Remember the incident where he saved a child's life. That alone shows more about his positive character, than being snotty to some pushy sportswriters.

Joel, nice post. That was a very interesting read. The HOF, to a lesser extent, takes on some of the same criticisms that the MVP balloting is sited for. What are the standards and please define them. Nevertheless, Rice was a borderline candidate or it wouldn’t have taken 15 years. I do, for the most part, like the fact that at least Bill James has come up with some type of measuring criteria, which mostly applies to the borderline types of candidates. It’s a pretty good litmus test.

How about one of the writers that didn't vote for Henderson and said, "Uhm, I'm just not a Henderson guy." What the hell does that mean? Sounds like a great criteria for HOF voting!!

John

[joelsabi]

Re: 2009 HOF Class

Joel, nice post. That was a very interesting read. The HOF, to a lesser extent, takes on some of the same criticisms that the MVP balloting is sited for. What are the standards and please define them. Nevertheless, Rice was a borderline candidate or it wouldn’t have taken 15 years. I do, for the most part, like the fact that at least Bill James has come up with some type of measuring criteria, which mostly applies to the borderline types of candidates. It’s a pretty good litmus test.

How about one of the writers that didn't vote for Henderson and said, "Uhm, I'm just not a Henderson guy." What the hell does that mean? Sounds like a great criteria for HOF voting!!

John

just to clarify the answer to each question was not the opinion of bill james but was the opionion of some writer on a forum who was using the criteria that james set up as questions to answer. i will get the original link so there is context. sorry for misinformation.

[joelsabi]

Re: 2009 HOF Class

How about one of the writers that didn't vote for Henderson and said, "Uhm, I'm just not a Henderson guy." What the hell does that mean? Sounds like a great criteria for HOF voting!!

John

JOhn

Do you know what Herderson Vote % was compared to other first balloter? That would be interesting.

[mwbosoxfan]

Re: 2009 HOF Class

JOhn

Do you know what Herderson Vote % was compared to other first balloter? That would be interesting.

I think it was just shy of 95% - 94 something if remember correctly.