Baseball Cheaters (Past & Present)

[3arod13]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past & Present)

Some of us at work were talking about cheaters in sports today. One person made the comment, "Many do the same thing in the work place to get ahead. Fighting for that position, promotion, and pay raise. The only differrence is, we do it and only those at work know about it. Not the whole world like when it happens in sports."

No matter where it's done, it's still not right.

[David]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past & Present)

All cheating is not of the same magnitude, just as not all crimes are of the not of the same magnitude. Armed robbery and jay walking are each one crime. For a long time, throwing games and using steroids have been the sports world equivalent of armed robbery. Players know this, which is why folks like McGwire, Bonds, Clemens and Palmeiro bend over backwards not to admit usage, even though the admission would result in no suspension or other punishment.

[Sincityson]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past & Present)

If anyone is in the mood for some reading, there's a good book called the "Cheaters Guide to Baseball" that I'd say is worth buying:

[TFig27]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past & Present)

Not saying Phil didn't doctor the ball...but I meant Joe...and the emery board incident.

I received this from Joe about a month before he passed.

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past & Present)

Forgive my ignorance, but what did Phil Niekro ever do??

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

Not saying Phil didn't doctor the ball...but I meant Joe...and the emery board incident.

[earlywynnfan]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past & Present)

Cheating is cheating.


Phil Niekro (just one example) is no better than A-Rod. Nor is he any worse.

Since someone mentioned George Brett, is he any better than AROD, with his illegal bat?

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

[earlywynnfan]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past & Present)

Cheating is cheating.


Phil Niekro (just one example) is no better than A-Rod. Nor is he any worse.

Forgive my ignorance, but what did Phil Niekro ever do??

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

[godwulf]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past & Present)

I just wish (and I'll refrain from naming names) there were a few more participants here to had the common sense you do to understand this simple relationship.....or should I say lack thereof. It's absolutely rediculous to "group" all the forms of minor infractions mentioned......in with steroid use. Night and day.

Night and day, apples and oranges...so we have been told, several times now. When it comes to making an assertion, however, repetition doesn't equal support; if you see an intrinsic difference between performance-enhancing drugs and every other kind of activity or behavior mentioned in this thread, that's great - good for you. Quite frankly, you haven't presented anything approaching as clear and convincing a case as you seem to believe you have.

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past & Present)

On that note..I'm going to bow out of this conversation. I know when to walk away before I let someone else's arrogance get the best of me...and I wind up looking like the bad guy. Especially when it's online. Not worth my time. I don't get baited by internet tough guy routines.

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past & Present)

Chris,

Awesome post.

I just wish (and I'll refrain from naming names) there were a few more participants here to had the common sense you do to understand this simple relationship.....or should I say lack thereof. It's absolutely rediculous to "group" all the forms of minor infractions mentioned......in with steroid use.

Night and day.

Cheating is cheating. Like I said, we can dance this dance all night. Atleast I have common sense enough not to be 49 and call people morons, retards and idiots to have a rational debate. Thanks skippy.

[suicide_squeeze]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past & Present)

This issue was brought up on another site - Sports Card Forum (SCF) - a while back and a few other issues were 'thrown on the fire' as far as what you consider cheating - or the various levels and such at which it is done.

Quite a few people brought up the distinction that has already been made here between 'doctoring' a ball / bat and 'doctoring' ones own body.

They are definately 'Apples and Oranges' in how they affect the game and it's records.

One of the things that came up (and I thought it was pretty ludicrous) was that Tiger Woods is a cheat at golf because he 'doctored' his body having Lasik - and then admitted that he had never seen the course or the greens as clearly until after he had the Lasik surgery. Is that cheating?

Base on the 'assumption' of few that called that cheating, it begged me to ask the question - does that mean everyone who has ever had Tommy John surgery or the like is a cheater since they may have also had a previously missed bone spur of whatever removed at the same time giving them more flexability?

Or what about Aaron Cook of the Rockies who almost died on the mound due to blood clots caused by a rib pinching a vein. The doctors removed the rib (on his pitching side mind you) and now Cook says his has better flexibility and better mechanics than ever before. Is that cheating? (Note - a few pitchers have actually discussed having that same rib bone removed from their pitching side after Cook in oreder to have better mechanics and such!?!?)

I think the answer to the above questions is NO, it's not cheating. It's a viable (or in Cook's case LIFE Necessary) operation to fix something that's BROKEN.

But Steroids aren't being used to fix something that's BROKEN, they are being used to either SUPERCHARGE an existing Star talent or at the least UPGRADE a mediocre talent to Star talent level.

As far as the comparing 'spitballs', 'cutballs', etc to Steroids use, that's just outrageous... for one thing, the 'art of cheating' or deception used to get a spitball or whatever is something that can be exposed IMMEDIATELY on the diamond and dealt with swiftly (expulsion form the game) on the spot. (i.e. Niekro's famous 'fluttering emory board' or A-Rod's <I'm really not piling on him here> 'girly swat' at Bronson Arroyo in the ALCS in 2004. They were both immediately DETECTABLE and punishment was swift and instantaneous.

STEROIDS were designed (and used) to give an UNDETECTABLE edge to a player w/ no punishment, but all the rewards.

And now players who get caught (for the most part) are trying to play it off - they weren't 'cheating', they were trying to get an 'edge' on the competition...

That said, I'm waiting to see who Tejada is about to 'out' in his plea deal when he goes to court...

All the best -

Chris

Chris,

Awesome post.

I just wish (and I'll refrain from naming names) there were a few more participants here to had the common sense you do to understand this simple relationship.....or should I say lack thereof. It's absolutely rediculous to "group" all the forms of minor infractions mentioned......in with steroid use.

Night and day.

[Nathan]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past &amp; Present)

Hal Chase was first accused of throwing games in 1908. He was involved in baseball for quite a few more years after that as a player and manager in the National League.

With the Giants, he also managed to corrupt Heinie Zimmerman (who, truth be told, apparently just needed a gentle nudge to the dark side).

[Rob L]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past &amp; Present)

Ty Cobb, an incredible A-hole, nearly thrown out of baseball by Landis for throwing/betting on a game with Tris Speaker. Hell of a player though!

[TNTtoys]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past &amp; Present)

But as far as Sammy's corked bat - and in his defense - MLB scanned over 80 something GU bats of Sosa's in private collections, the HOF, museums, etc and found cork in NONE of them.

While (again) I don't doubt Sammy juiced, I do believe he grabbed the wrong bat that day - an 'exhibition bat' used for BP to put on a show for the early fans...

Just my .02

- Chris

Chris,

Thank you for adding this. I was about to do the same when I read thru the thread until I saw your comments. I agree with you completely & believe Sosa made an honest mistake here.

Nick

[flaco1801]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past &amp; Present)

brady anderson hit 50 homers... mays would have hit 100