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But I strongly agree with this stance and wanted to share...
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
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Re: Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....
I agree 100%. To start keeping players out now, after inducting many of the characters that are in the HOF, would be a double standard. Not to mention it would be ridiculous. -
Re: Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....
I guess this makes me "monocrhomatic"...but I couldn't disagree more.
In the past, I'll admit to having had mixed feelings on the subject, but this article, if anything, only serves to push me into the other camp.
"Players reflect their times"? Oh, so I guess that makes this the era when nobody really cares what you do as long as you play well and make money for yourself and your team? Nobody kicked at KKK memberships and monkey testosterone, so let's just forget about having any standards whatsoever?
Officer, why did you stop me?...everybody's speeding on this road.
Comparing a juicing player with an elementary school student taking Ritalin? Suggesting that the HOF voters might be replaced with (among others) "fantasy leaguers and serious baseball bloggers"?
This column could be a parody of PED defenders. If this is all they've got - and it seems pretty comprehensive, with its veritable laundry list of excuses and weaseling (my apologies to weasels, which are actually very cool little animals) - I'm not impressed in the slightest.Jeff
godwulf1@cox.netComment
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Re: Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....
Welcome to the slippery slope.
Keep in mind, it's the sportwriters, not some arcane body at the Hall of Fame, that makes these determinations.
The sportwriters crafted fawning tributes to these players for years. Go back and read pieces on Bonds circa 2001-2002 as sportswriters tripped over themselves to see who could lavish the most praise.
Compare those writings with the current line on Bonds et al, and you begin to appreciate this is more about the embarrassment and 'betrayal' of the sportswriters than anything else.
I applaude ESPN for having the courage to run this piece -- one of the first and only rational discussions I have seen on this issue.
If we're going to exclude players from the Hall of Fame because their 'unfair edge' somehow muddies the record books, then let's remove any player with numbers prior to 1947, shall we?
How different would the 'official' record books look if Josh Gibson, Cool Papa Bell, Satchel Paige in his prime, etc. etc. had been allowed to compete on equal terms?
Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.comComment
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Re: Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....
It isn't possible to turn back the clock and start expelling guys from the Hall, either because we're judging them by a different standard than was in play in their day, or because the details and extent of their "transgressions" were not generally known, or for other reasons unrelated (or even related) to their play on the field or personal character.
All we can do is to uphold the rules, as written, today.
To do otherwise is really just attempting to excuse bad behavior - behavior that absolutely should disqualify anyone from being voted into the HOF today - by citing the ethical lapses of athletes (and, perhaps, of sportswriters) of the past.
I don't care what the HOF voters did twenty, forty, sixty years ago - that's out of our hands. What the voters do today, and what the fans call for (and stand for) is our responsibility.
Let future Baseball people look back at this time, and say, "Yeah...that's when they started enforcing the rules. That's when they started doing it the right way."Jeff
godwulf1@cox.netComment
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Re: Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....
what if it was left to baseball fans who have internet access.
Which of these players would you vote into the Hall of Fame?
90.2% Greg Maddux
84.5% Alex Rodriguez
83.8% Ken Griffey Jr.
82.1% Randy Johnson
78.2% Mariano Rivera
74.6% Derek Jeter
74.0% Tom Glavine
73.2% Albert Pujols
71.2% Manny Ramirez
67.9% John Smoltz
60.0% Pedro Martinez
59.6% Ichiro Suzuki
55.8% Ivan Rodriguez
53.4% Trevor Hoffman
49.4% Frank Thomas
46.9% Chipper Jones
40.7% Curt Schilling
38.5% Vladimir Guerrero
36.8% Jeff Kent
34.7% Johan Santana
33.2% Mike Mussina
32.3% Jim Thome
29.2% Omar Vizquel
16.6% Gary Sheffield
10.2% Carlos Delgado
Total Votes: 10,842Regards,
Joel S.
joelsabi @ gmail.com
Wanted: Alex Rodriguez Game Used Items and other unique artifacts, 1992 thru 1998 only. From High School to Early Mariners.Comment
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Re: Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....
Here a good read on HOF voting:
I think the votes should be made public too.Regards,
Joel S.
joelsabi @ gmail.com
Wanted: Alex Rodriguez Game Used Items and other unique artifacts, 1992 thru 1998 only. From High School to Early Mariners.Comment
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Re: Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....
Glavine a little too high and no love for Thome. Don't see why A-Rod is that much higher than Manny and Pujols. I think by the time current players are up for vote the system will make more sense.what if it was left to baseball fans who have internet access.
Which of these players would you vote into the Hall of Fame?
90.2% Greg Maddux
84.5% Alex Rodriguez
83.8% Ken Griffey Jr.
82.1% Randy Johnson
78.2% Mariano Rivera
74.6% Derek Jeter
74.0% Tom Glavine
73.2% Albert Pujols
71.2% Manny Ramirez
67.9% John Smoltz
60.0% Pedro Martinez
59.6% Ichiro Suzuki
55.8% Ivan Rodriguez
53.4% Trevor Hoffman
49.4% Frank Thomas
46.9% Chipper Jones
40.7% Curt Schilling
38.5% Vladimir Guerrero
36.8% Jeff Kent
34.7% Johan Santana
33.2% Mike Mussina
32.3% Jim Thome
29.2% Omar Vizquel
16.6% Gary Sheffield
10.2% Carlos Delgado
Total Votes: 10,842Comment
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Re: Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....
With all due respect, the rules for Hall of Fame admission are already being upheld, as they are written today:
Don't confuse the rules of the HOF with those of MLB, because they're not the same. The rules for HOF admission have been carefully crafted to avoid subjective issues relating to personal behavior.
If there were a rule stating that use of PEDs, or on-field 'cheating' of any kind, precluded a player from HOF consideration this entire debate would be moot.
How many HOF pitchers have loaded a baseball at some point in their career? How many HOF batters have corked?
There's no doubt that many of the PEDs implicated players will fail to make it to the HOF in their first year of eligibility. If that's due to payback from the baseball writers, so be it.
But fast forward 20 years, and if Bonds, Rodriguez, McGwire, Palmeiro, Ramirez, Clemens, etc. are not in the HOF, they might as well shut the doors because the HOF will have become invalid. And I say that as someone who has given enough memorabilia to the HOF to have received a lifetime pass.
Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.comAttached FilesComment
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Re: Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....
Honestly, you don't consider the use of performance-enhancing drugs to be in any way negatively indicative of a player's "integrity, sportsmanship, [or] character"?Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.Jeff
godwulf1@cox.netComment
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Re: Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....
I understand where you're coming from, and I don't want to sound like an apologist for steroid use.
All I'm saying is, within the context of the times, PEDs are no different (from an integrity, sportsmanship, or character perspective) than other behaviors ascribed to players currently in the Hall of Fame.
The spitball was banned in 1920 but was commonly used for another two decades and wasn't uncommon another three decades after THAT.
I wish Alex Rodriguez had not used steroids, but he did. I wish Gaylord Perry had not thrown a spitball pitch, but he did. Should they be in the Hall of Fame? IMO they should.
But again, I understand your position, and realize many people feel the same way. This is a circular argument, which is what makes it interesting
Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.comComment
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Re: Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....
PED's, and the players who have and are still using them, are no better and no worse than the clansmen, racists, wife beaters, alcoholics and overall dirtbags that some of the men were that are currently in the HOF.
Whose's to say one is better than the other?
How can we honestly ignore past players known behaviors and only focus on todays PED users?
Players should still be judged by their numbers....tainted or not. How do we know that players in the 70's were using all sorts of drugs while playing which might have altered their numbers? We know many players in the 80's used cocaine. What about them?
What if 2 weeks after we induct Rickey we find out he used PED's? Do we "expel" him?
At this point , in my honest opinion, it's a moot point.
I say if they had HOF numbers...put them in. And that goes for my most hated player of all time...Bonds.
But then again.....this is just my opinion and take on things.Comment
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Re: Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....
I understand what you guys are saying, but at the same time, it just smacks of, to my way of thinking, the "It's not fair to penalize me for breaking the rules when so many others have gotten away with it" mentality.
I'll go along with you on this, on one condition: that the words "integrity, sportsmanship, character" are stricken from the HOF voting criteria. Regardless of what other generations of ballplayers, fans and sportswriters have done, there's no way we can continue to pretend that HOF membership means anything if we're going to just ignore half the requirements for induction.Jeff
godwulf1@cox.netComment
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Re: Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....
I'm in complete agreement with you on that point. Morality cannot be legislated.
People forget that Bowie Kuhn banned both Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays from any association with Major League Baseball for crying out loud, and this was AFTER they were inducted in the Hall of Fame.
Fortunately the Hall had the good sense to leave things as they stood, and Peter Ueberroth likewise had the good sense to overturn the ban.
Now if only we could find a Commissioner with enough good sense to remove Joe Jackson from MLB's ineligible list, we could get him into the Hall of Fame where he belongs.
Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.comComment
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