Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....

[David]

Re: Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....

The problem with steroids users are their numbers can't be taken at face value and would have been substantially lower if they had not used. Some of these players (McGwire, Palmeiro, Sheffield?) would not have the HOF-level stats they currently have if not for steroids, and we wouldn't be debating if they were HOF worthy as their stats would not be good enough.

I also don't give the benefit of the doubt to steroid users. Some say "So and so was going to the Hall of Fame even without steroids." My response is either "You can never know that" or "Then he shouldn't have used steroids." Many people said Eric Davis "was going to the Hall of Fame" until he sucked.

[David]

Re: Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....

Here’s an example. Many think Rafael Palmeiro should be in the home run, not because of contemporary player to player comparison, but because he hit over 500 home runs and 3,000 hits. If he didn’t use steroids and hit only 450 home runs and 2789 hits, how many people would say he should be in the Hall of Fame? Close to none.


If Gary Sheffield never used steroids and hit only 469 home runs, how many would think he deserved to go to the Hall? Close to none.


In my opinion, the only reason some players are currently even being debated as possible Hall of Famers is because they artificially inflated their numbers via steroids. Without the artificially padding, few to no one would consider them Hall worthy.

[David]

Re: Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....

One very last point. Even if one subscribes to the theory that you should drop the morals and ethics and just accept that steroids were prevelent in the era and judge players within the context of their era, that does not change the fact that the only reason Palmeiro and Sheffield would be in the Hall of Fame was because steroids boosted their numbers into “Hall of Fame numbers.” From whichever moral or philosophical or practical way the steroid era is viewed, steroids made some players from non-HOFers to HOFers.

[joelsabi]

Re: Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=gallo/090513&sportCat=mlb

"Oh, right. A priest, a rabbi and Manny Ramirez walk into a bar. The bartender says 'What'll you have?' The priest says: 'I'll have a beer.' The rabbi says: 'I'll have a glass of wine.' The bartender says: 'What about you, Manny?' And Manny says: 'I can't drink alcohol because I'm taking female fertility drugs. I'll have a glass of cranberry juice.'"