Scoreboard Triple Crown

[kingjammy24]

Re: Scoreboard Triple Crown

good god what i'd do for the "edit" function to be brought back. anyway, when jim talked about different "tagging schemes" i assume he meant different tagging formats (different fonts, different date/number/set formats, different materials), not extremely minor differences in tag placement. noone would call one tag being 2mm higher than another tag a "different tagging scheme". the standard rawlings flag tags also differed slightly in their exact placement. again, these differences were obviously implemented by rawlings, not the giants.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Scoreboard Triple Crown

edit to my last msg: "date format" should read "number format". interesting that henderson's exemplars show the giants using uniform numbers on their strip tags while the ebay willie mays jerseys show a date. i've never had any interest in giants shirts so unfortunately i don't have a giants library to show.

sometimes rawlings placed the strip tags a little higher on the left, and sometimes a little lower. sometimes they even placed them on the bottom. how does this support the idea that the strip tags were done by the giants? i fail to see the point being made. the only point i see is that rawlings was somewhat sloppy in where they applied the tags. i don't think they cared much.

if a strip tag is sewn underneath a mfr tag, then in order to get it under there after the fact would necessarily entail popping open the mfr tag, sliding it underneath and resewing it. this is common sense. you would see ghost stitching/restitching. go ahead and sew a strip tag under the mfr tag of jersey and see what's required and how it looks after you're all done. you'll be able to tell that the seam was popped open and resewn. conversely, if a strip tag is seamlessly (no pun intended) inserted under a mfr tag then the only way to do that would be for the mfr tag to have been sewn over top of it and the only entity able to do that would've been rawlings. rawlings did not ship tagless jerseys along with a whole box of loose rawlings mfr tags and strip tags to teams with the intent that the teams then construct it themselves.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Scoreboard Triple Crown

From Bill Henderson's guide showing the authentic game worn SF Giants tags from 1989, all of them show the tags underneath the rawlings tag. (see attached)

And there are many different variables that were used it shows.

i've checked henderson's guide and your photos. what are the variables, besides the fact that, while they were sewn underneath the tag, the exact location differed slightly? the font and date format appears consistent.

rudy.

[MikeM]

Re: Scoreboard Triple Crown

on both of the mays ebay jerseys, you'll notice the strip tags are sewn underneath the rawlings tag. assuming that neither jersey is doctored, the only logical conclusion is that the strip tags were affixed by the manufacturer. if they were affixed by the team or a local shop, then that'd mean that the mfr tag would need to have been popped open, the strip tag inserted underneath and the mfr tag resewn. i don't see evidence of this nor does it make sense to go through all that trouble when you could just sew the strip tag directly below without actually sewing inside the mfr tag. when you see a strip tag sewn underneath a mfr tag it typically means it was done by the manufacturer.

From Bill Henderson's guide showing the authentic game worn SF Giants tags from 1989, all of them show the tags underneath the rawlings tag. (see attached)

And there are many different variables that were used it shows.

[sox83cubs84]

Re: Scoreboard Triple Crown

Amazingly, there's a seller on eBay currently listing a Mike Schmidt Score Board jersey and he DOESN'T say or even hint that the jersey is game used. This honest guy that Diogenes is looking for is seller autograph2.

Dave M.
Chicago area

[kingjammy24]

Re: Scoreboard Triple Crown

willie sure did go through a lot of jerseys as a part-time coach. note: if these were simply autographed retail/replica shirts then the rawlings tag would be on the outside tail, not the inside.

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=37853

http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=87061&Lot_No=90619&src=pr

http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=48111&Lot_No=41157&src=pr

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Scoreboard Triple Crown

Also...ALL Score Board jerseys are home versions..

that never registered to me before but now that i think about it, it's true. the canseco, bo, strawberry, jeffries, will clark shirts were ALL home jerseys. magic! just an incredible coincidence. i'm guessing it was because the target market for these shirts were fans of the specific players and the most amount of fans of a specific player would likely be found in the player's team's hometown. eg: most of will clark's fans were in SF and they'd likely prefer a home shirt to a road shirt.

i've seen a number of these willie mays jerseys and again, not a single road version. maybe willie didn't go on the road with the team huh? i remember seeing boxloads of bo jackson and canseco shirts, before i knew they were scoreboard shirts and the one thing that i couldn't understand is why there were so many home "gamers" available for these 2 players in but i'd never seen a single road shirt. if you looked at the jacksons, it seemed as if bo wore 30 home jerseys in 1989, yet i'd only seen 1 or maybe 2 of his road shirts.

this makes the "1991 rickey henderson" glut more interesting. again, tons of 1991 henderson home jerseys available, most in pristine condition yet i've only seen 1 road gamer of his from that year.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Scoreboard Triple Crown

jim

on both of the mays ebay jerseys, you'll notice the strip tags are sewn underneath the rawlings tag. assuming that neither jersey is doctored, the only logical conclusion is that the strip tags were affixed by the manufacturer. if they were affixed by the team or a local shop, then that'd mean that the mfr tag would need to have been popped open, the strip tag inserted underneath and the mfr tag resewn. i don't see evidence of this nor does it make sense to go through all that trouble when you could just sew the strip tag directly below without actually sewing inside the mfr tag. when you see a strip tag sewn underneath a mfr tag it typically means it was done by the manufacturer.

secondly, the fact that the strip tags bear a font style used by other rawlings-provided teams during that era further supports my idea that the strip tags were affixed by rawlings. it's the exact same font i've seen on rawlings jerseys of that era from the A's, Brewers, Cubs, Expos, Indians, Rangers, and Twins. when you get the same font being used by numerous clubs across the country, again, it's an indication that the font was sewn by the mfr. how did 8 different clubs magically manage to choose the exact same font? they didn't. it came from rawlings.

thirdly, both of the ebay mays jerseys have 1990/91 style rawlings tags with 1989 strip tags. i've seen a total of 3 or 4 legit rawlings gamers, from all MLB teams, with that aberration (usually late season orders). what an incredible coincidence that 2 HOME willie mays shirts from 1989 specifically have the exact same aberration. this specification aberration (1990/91 tags with 1989 strip or flag tags) is a hallmark of scoreboard shirts.

the Giants may have been doing things willy-nilly, but those strip tags were implemented by rawlings, not the Giants. i'm aware that teams use different tagging schemes within a single season but in most cases those different schemes all still come from the mfr. in 1990, the A's used 2 different kinds of tagging; some jerseys had strip tags, some had flag tags. both kinds came from rawlings, not the A's. the Jays used different kinds; both came from wilson. during the early 90s, the white sox couldn't make up their minds between russell and wilson so the entire team played in both mfrs, in home, road, and alt jerseys, within the same game. again, any and all variations came from the mfr. these variations may have been requested by the team, but they still came from the mfr.

i understand your implication that a 4-digit format may be correct. personally, what i'd like to see before i reached that conclusion on 1989 giants shirts, would be at least 1 common player showing a 4-digit format. not a willie mays autographed shirt with a scoreboard-esque tagging aberration. show me a donell nixon or greg litton with a 4-digit year strip tag and that'll prove to me that the giants did use that specific format in that specific year. simply saying the giants were nutty doesn't actually prove anything one way or another.

rudy.

[sox83cubs84]

Re: Scoreboard Triple Crown

mays and will clark. bo and nolan. canseco and gregg jeffries. those are the ones that immediately come to mind. not sure if there were others. rickey henderson would've been a logical choice given what a premier player he was around that 1989-1991 timeframe but i'm not sure if he was on the scoreboard train. i sure have seen enough 1991 home rickey henderson shirts to suggest something was amiss.

rudy.

Don't forget Seaver and Mike Schmidt, too.

Also...ALL Score Board jerseys are home versions, and none were made of teams that used Wilson only at the time on their home styles (Braves, Blue Jays, Red Sox, Tigers, Yankees.

Dave M.
Chicago area

[cohibasmoker]

Re: Scoreboard Triple Crown

interesting....i knew of the Nolan and Bo jackson...didnt know Willie Mays was in this group too

check out this game worn "coaches" willie mays that just ended....seems to me to be the same type jersey

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

In 1989, my wife and I were married. We spent part of our honeymoon in the Bay area. One day we stopped by Dick Dobbin's home and he was kind enough to show us part of his sports memorabilia collection. Of particular interest was a group of jerseys that he just received from the Giants.

My memory is a tad sketchy but what I can remember was Dick showing me the different ways the Giants changed letters, numbers, added nameplates, removed nameplates, put NOB without nameplates. If it took stripping a number off one jersey and putting it on another, they did it. If they needed a letter for a jersey, they would take a letter off of another nameplate. It didn't matter. We also discussed the many DIFFERENT tagging schemes the team used. Even back then, Dick was concerned about jerseys from the same year having different tagging schemes.

The bottom line was, the team did not care about standardized practices and they did whatever they needed to do to outfit the team. And yes, there were a couple of Mays jerseys in the lot. I know this because I was considering buying one.

Jim

[xpress34]

Re: Scoreboard Triple Crown

I'll add a little more fuel to this fire...

The Ryan - if it is a 'Gamer' - should be listed as a SPRING TRAINING Game GU.

Since his time with the Angels, Ryan only wore Goodman & Sons on the field - look at 'in game' picture of him - NO Rawlings or Russell or anyone else's logo on the sleeves.

The few Rangers pictures I have seen of him pitching in his home white where you can see the Rawlings or Russell logo on the sleeves ALL have Palm Trees in the background - suggesting Port Charlotte, FL as Arlington Stadium certainly did NOT have Palm Trees growing there.

Also, NOT just Scoreboard, but other 'Memorabilia' companies from the late 80's to early 90's had deals to resell both Rawlings and Russell 'AUTHENTICS' (w/ 'proper' tail tagging) as collectibles.

Just my .02

- Chris

[TNTtoys]

Re: Scoreboard Triple Crown

mays and will clark. bo and nolan. canseco and gregg jeffries. those are the ones that immediately come to mind. not sure if there were others. rickey henderson would've been a logical choice given what a premier player he was around that 1989-1991 timeframe but i'm not sure if he was on the scoreboard train. i sure have seen enough 1991 home rickey henderson shirts to suggest something was amiss.

rudy.

Add Darryl Strawberry to the list. I remember one time seeing a seller with 2 for sale at the same time -- the Jefferies and the Strawberry. I had the "Daily Double" that night... Congratulations on your Trifecta!

[kingjammy24]

Re: Scoreboard Triple Crown

interesting....i knew of the Nolan and Bo jackson...didnt know Willie Mays was in this group too

check out this game worn "coaches" willie mays that just ended....seems to me to be the same type jersey

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

mays and will clark. bo and nolan. canseco and gregg jeffries. those are the ones that immediately come to mind. not sure if there were others. rickey henderson would've been a logical choice given what a premier player he was around that 1989-1991 timeframe but i'm not sure if he was on the scoreboard train. i sure have seen enough 1991 home rickey henderson shirts to suggest something was amiss.

rudy.

[worldchamps]

Re: Scoreboard Triple Crown

interesting....i knew of the Nolan and Bo jackson...didnt know Willie Mays was in this group too

check out this game worn "coaches" willie mays that just ended....seems to me to be the same type jersey

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260487044710&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

[sox83cubs84]

Re: Scoreboard Triple Crown

Rudy:

Right offhand, I can't think of any examples I can recall that would contradict your belief on 1989 A's and strip tags.

Dave M.
Chicago area