Scoreboard Triple Crown

[kingjammy24]

Re: Scoreboard Triple Crown

From Bill Henderson's guide showing the authentic game worn SF Giants tags from 1989, all of them show the tags underneath the rawlings tag. (see attached)

And there are many different variables that were used it shows.

i've checked henderson's guide and your photos. what are the variables, besides the fact that, while they were sewn underneath the tag, the exact location differed slightly? the font and date format appears consistent.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Scoreboard Triple Crown

edit to my last msg: "date format" should read "number format". interesting that henderson's exemplars show the giants using uniform numbers on their strip tags while the ebay willie mays jerseys show a date. i've never had any interest in giants shirts so unfortunately i don't have a giants library to show.

sometimes rawlings placed the strip tags a little higher on the left, and sometimes a little lower. sometimes they even placed them on the bottom. how does this support the idea that the strip tags were done by the giants? i fail to see the point being made. the only point i see is that rawlings was somewhat sloppy in where they applied the tags. i don't think they cared much.

if a strip tag is sewn underneath a mfr tag, then in order to get it under there after the fact would necessarily entail popping open the mfr tag, sliding it underneath and resewing it. this is common sense. you would see ghost stitching/restitching. go ahead and sew a strip tag under the mfr tag of jersey and see what's required and how it looks after you're all done. you'll be able to tell that the seam was popped open and resewn. conversely, if a strip tag is seamlessly (no pun intended) inserted under a mfr tag then the only way to do that would be for the mfr tag to have been sewn over top of it and the only entity able to do that would've been rawlings. rawlings did not ship tagless jerseys along with a whole box of loose rawlings mfr tags and strip tags to teams with the intent that the teams then construct it themselves.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Scoreboard Triple Crown

good god what i'd do for the "edit" function to be brought back. anyway, when jim talked about different "tagging schemes" i assume he meant different tagging formats (different fonts, different date/number/set formats, different materials), not extremely minor differences in tag placement. noone would call one tag being 2mm higher than another tag a "different tagging scheme". the standard rawlings flag tags also differed slightly in their exact placement. again, these differences were obviously implemented by rawlings, not the giants.

rudy.

[suave1477]

Re: Scoreboard Triple Crown

that never registered to me before but now that i think about it, it's true. the canseco, bo, strawberry, jeffries, will clark shirts were ALL home jerseys. magic! just an incredible coincidence. i'm guessing it was because the target market for these shirts were fans of the specific players and the most amount of fans of a specific player would likely be found in the player's team's hometown. eg: most of will clark's fans were in SF and they'd likely prefer a home shirt to a road shirt.

i've seen a number of these willie mays jerseys and again, not a single road version. maybe willie didn't go on the road with the team huh? i remember seeing boxloads of bo jackson and canseco shirts, before i knew they were scoreboard shirts and the one thing that i couldn't understand is why there were so many home "gamers" available for these 2 players in but i'd never seen a single road shirt. if you looked at the jacksons, it seemed as if bo wore 30 home jerseys in 1989, yet i'd only seen 1 or maybe 2 of his road shirts.

this makes the "1991 rickey henderson" glut more interesting. again, tons of 1991 henderson home jerseys available, most in pristine condition yet i've only seen 1 road gamer of his from that year.

rudy.

Ruday yeah I pointed that out some time ago. That they are always home Jerseys and that is why I tell people if you want a Strawberry from that year wait for a Road Jersey at least that way you have a highly likeness that it will be the real thing. I always tell people no matter what stay away from his Home Jerseys from that year.

Here is the Irony of it all. I have yet to ever see from that year a Road Jersey pop up.
It is always a Home Jersey.

[Marichal27]

Re: Scoreboard Triple Crown

In 1989, my wife and I were married. We spent part of our honeymoon in the Bay area. One day we stopped by Dick Dobbin's home and he was kind enough to show us part of his sports memorabilia collection. Of particular interest was a group of jerseys that he just received from the Giants.

My memory is a tad sketchy but what I can remember was Dick showing me the different ways the Giants changed letters, numbers, added nameplates, removed nameplates, put NOB without nameplates. If it took stripping a number off one jersey and putting it on another, they did it. If they needed a letter for a jersey, they would take a letter off of another nameplate. It didn't matter. We also discussed the many DIFFERENT tagging schemes the team used. Even back then, Dick was concerned about jerseys from the same year having different tagging schemes.

The bottom line was, the team did not care about standardized practices and they did whatever they needed to do to outfit the team. And yes, there were a couple of Mays jerseys in the lot. I know this because I was considering buying one.

Jim

Had nothing to do with the team, had to do with the manufacturer, in this case Rawlings.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Scoreboard Triple Crown

anyway, here's the other point; these scoreboard shirts were produced by rawlings for resale by scoreboard. the profundity here is that they were produced according to "pro specs" that included the same size and tagging as worn by the respective player. scoreboard's canseco jersey was perfect. flawless in every respect. they even had "2 90" strip tags. "2"! as if they were really set 2s! they seem to all have had 1990-91 rawlings tags even though some jerseys had 1989 strip/flag tags (like the bo jackson) while others had apropo 1990 strip/flag tags (like the canseco). the cansecos were completely error-free. at least on some of the others, like the bo jacksons, you could tell that 1989 flag tag didn't jive with the 1990-91 rawlings tag. interestingly enough, the bo jacksons were also "set 2" and the ebay nolan ryan is a set 2. i would be curious if the gregg jeffries', strawberrys, schmidts and will clarks were also set 2s.

anyway i still haven't gotten to the real point: these jerseys were produced as if they would've been ordered by the team/player and as such, had proper tagging. yet the willie mays doesn't appear to have proper tagging. that is, it appears to have tagging that isn't consistent with legit 1989 giants gamers and to me that inconsistency doesn't make much sense. to my knowledge, the scoreboard shirts were properly tagged/tagged identically to gamers because that's how they were ordered. yet the ebay jackson and ebay mays seem to have tagging inconsistent with 1989 A's and 1989 Giants jerseys respectively. i'm not sure why that is.

rudy.

[zonker]

Re: Scoreboard Triple Crown

here's some pic's of jersey that came with team letter from dobbins. i have seen a few player from 90/91. who were not offered by score board with the same tagging as the may's except year, but i know may's was banned by mlb and reinstated in late 89 so maybe that's why the tagging is this way? i don't know how many may's are out there, but he was a hitting coach at the time as well as appearing at world series game's and played in the legend's game's during that time wearing this same style and the tagging can be seen sewn on the inside of the tail from picture's from these game's. so they were example's of this tagging style offered with team letter's from this time period. here's an a's road with this style tagging from a no name player that came with dobbins letter from 90, so there are road jersey's out there also with this style tagging that came from the team. i just thought it was interesting?

[zonker]

Re: Scoreboard Triple Crown

here's pic's of a 90 henderson with close tagging also came with team letter.

[TNTtoys]

Re: Scoreboard Triple Crown

i would be curious if the gregg jeffries', strawberrys, schmidts and will clarks were also set 2s.

Here's the tagging from a Jefferies shirt -- it's a Set 1.

[Marichal27]

Re: Scoreboard Triple Crown

here's some pic's of jersey that came with team letter from dobbins. i have seen a few player from 90/91. who were not offered by score board with the same tagging as the may's except year, but i know may's was banned by mlb and reinstated in late 89 so maybe that's why the tagging is this way? i don't know how many may's are out there, but he was a hitting coach at the time as well as appearing at world series game's and played in the legend's game's during that time wearing this same style and the tagging can be seen sewn on the inside of the tail from picture's from these game's. so they were example's of this tagging style offered with team letter's from this time period. here's an a's road with this style tagging from a no name player that came with dobbins letter from 90, so there are road jersey's out there also with this style tagging that came from the team. i just thought it was interesting?

Mays was in spring traing in 1986, and did some coaching for the Giants. Plus he had uniforms made up for him. Plus he never had a uniform made out for him in '89.

[Marichal27]

Re: Scoreboard Triple Crown

willie sure did go through a lot of jerseys as a part-time coach. note: if these were simply autographed retail/replica shirts then the rawlings tag would be on the outside tail, not the inside.

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=37853

http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=87061&Lot_No=90619&src=pr

http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=48111&Lot_No=41157&src=pr

rudy.

There is someone else trying to sell one of the Scoreboard Mays jersey's as "issued". Then he said it was used in World Series, old timers games, said Mays was a hitting coach.
ebay #220498393834

[Marichal27]

Re: Scoreboard Triple Crown

here's some pic's of jersey that came with team letter from dobbins. i have seen a few player from 90/91. who were not offered by score board with the same tagging as the may's except year, but i know may's was banned by mlb and reinstated in late 89 so maybe that's why the tagging is this way? i don't know how many may's are out there, but he was a hitting coach at the time as well as appearing at world series game's and played in the legend's game's during that time wearing this same style and the tagging can be seen sewn on the inside of the tail from picture's from these game's. so they were example's of this tagging style offered with team letter's from this time period. here's an a's road with this style tagging from a no name player that came with dobbins letter from 90, so there are road jersey's out there also with this style tagging that came from the team. i just thought it was interesting?

Zonker...You wouldn't happen to have a tagged 1989 24 Mays "issued" jersey on ebay?

[kingjammy24]

Re: Scoreboard Triple Crown

this thread seems to have evolved into 2 unrelated issues.

1) the correct tagging for 1989 giants jerseys

2) whether or not scoreboard offered 1989 home willie mays jerseys

zonker, the pics you show do not show the same style of tagging as the ebay mays. your tags have a 2-digit year, the ebay mays' have a 4-digit year. given that they aren't the same, i'm not sure what point you were trying to make. your kelly downs jersey is from 1991, has a correct 1990/91 style rawlings tag and a 2-digit year. how does this comment on a 1989 willie mays jersey with an incorrect 1990/91 style rawlings tag with a 4-digit year?

if the tagging seen on the ebay mays jerseys is correct, then it's completely irrelevant to the scoreboard issue because the scoreboard shirts should have the correct tagging! that is, a scoreboard shirt isn't identified by incorrect tagging.

for me, this thread wasn't really about correct tagging on 1989 giants shirts but rather about the ebay mays' jerseys being scoreboard shirts. so far, i've seen about 5 of these things, they're all home jerseys and they're all set 2. mays really went through 5 home jerseys in 1989? and somehow they all wound up being set 2? does anyone with any common sense believe this to be likely? what are the odds of a part-time hitting instructor being issued 5 home set 2 jerseys in 1989? and of course, they're all autographed which was how the scoreboard shirts were offered.

rudy.

[zonker]

Re: Scoreboard Triple Crown

marichal..... no i don't . the point i was making kingjimmy was all the differant tagging style's used by the giant's from 89-91 and all that were shown by me are correct. all the scoreboard jersey's that i have seen are tagged correctly and the may's is not. that makes me belive that the mays isn't a scoreboard. this also backed by another forum member who actually seen and was offered this style jersey from dick dobbins back in the day. wasn't he the only way to get authentic giant gamer's back in the day. my theory is that mays ordered these directly from rawling's for whatever reason thru dick dobbins or the giant's. one thing is for sure they all were issued and ordered from rawlings and ended up in willie may's hand's for him to autograph. i don't believe that willie went on the road with the giant's. so why would he need a road jersey. he always seemed to show up at the giants season openers,world series,old timers games and played in the legend's game's during that period. could willie have ordered 5 or more jersey's from rawling's late in the 89 season to use at these event's? exspecialy during 1990 absolutely! i thought the thread was about score board jersey's as well and all identifier's point to these jersey not being a typical jersey offered by score board. the tagging is incorrect for all other known score board jerseys.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Scoreboard Triple Crown

...all the scoreboard jersey's that i have seen are tagged correctly and the may's is not. that makes me belive that the mays isn't a scoreboard....my theory is that mays ordered these directly from rawling's for whatever reason thru dick dobbins or the giant's..

mays was reinstated in 1985, not 1989. anyway, the scoreboard jerseys in general are interesting because of the tagging. scoreboard didn't sell them as game-used or game-issued so why did they go to all the trouble of getting these pro-spec shirts when they could've just gotten authentic replicas? i mean, if you're selling a bo jackson signed shirt for $199 or whatever, why go to the trouble of having it pro-tagged? were the HSN buyers really that savvy? anyway, for reasons unknown, scoreboard procured these shirts. the next question is how they did it. did they order them directly from rawlings or did they go through the players themselves? did canseco order 15 boxes of pro-tagged canseco jerseys for scoreboard?
the "how" matters because i don't believe anyone could just call up rawlings and order a pro-spec jersey. the best you could buy in those days, as a consumer, were retail offerings. rawlings wasn't producing pro-spec, pro-tagged shirts for retail sale. i can see how a team or player could place an order directly from rawlings. could scoreboard? could a retired player like mays? mays wasn't a player and i'm not sure what his real affiliation was with the giants in 1989. perhaps the reason the tagging on the mays isn't kosher is because mays wasn't a player. that is, rawlings made a jersey, for scoreboard, that didn't adhere to any player/team spec because mays wasn't a player and thus had no team. canseco or bo or will clark could place orders for the same jerseys that were actually shipped to them as players that year. teams had various tagging schemes. some had strip tags, some didn't, etc. so in order to produce 1989 bo jackson jerseys for scoreboard, all rawlings had to do was look up the specs for what they shipped to the royals in 1989. what was rawlings to look up in mays' case? was a "giant" officially in 1989? showing up for presentations doesn't make you part of the team. maybe rawlings just made up a generic strip tag because mays wasn't a player and thus didn't have a team so there was no reference for rawlings as to what to use. all of the other scoreboard shirts were properly tagged because the orders referred to current players on specific teams. mays was long retired and had no team so maybe rawlings just made up a generic tag for him. just an idea.

rudy.