JoSports did you misspeak???? How many Sanchez jerseys are there???

[staindsox]

Re: JoSports did you misspeak???? How many Sanchez jerseys are there???

I think fair use might be a tough sell since this is a for-profit endeavor.

[5kRunner]

Re: JoSports did you misspeak???? How many Sanchez jerseys are there???

Hi eveybody,

I double-checked with my lead authenticator, Stu Oxenhorn, who spearheads our photo-matching and authentication services and works closely with Getty Images.

He told me why we don't post the photo-matches: We are prohibited from doing so. Our contract with Getty permits us to offer a Getty Image as a photographic LOA only as part of an authentication process. In fact, if we were asked to make a copy of the photo without the LOA-type information, just as a glossy 8 X 10, we could not. And we could not send the digital photo in downloaded form to anybody, we can only use it for our research/authentication purposes.

We do appreciate the suggestion of improving our descriptions for photo-matched (and in some cases, non photo-matched) jerseys. We'll work on that. Thanks for the feedback.

And a suggestion: Let's please keep the debate constructive, not vitriolic. Constructive criticism, no matter to whom it is pointed, is better for the hobby.

Barry

Barry,
Are you sure you can't post the photo matches?

Rudy and Robert both agree that you/they can under "Fair Use".

Although I'm no attorney, it seems to me that in editing the photos to show the photomatches, GUU's use might fall into the category of Fair Use which stipulates that copyrighted works may be used, without permission, for the purposes of criticism, commentary, and/or parody. if you're discussing a jersey and use a getty photo to illustrate what you're talking about, i believe that constitutes Fair Use.

a long time ago, people here discussed Historic Auction's listings and used their photos. In reply, Historic said it wanted all of its auction photos removed from any GUU threads. the GUU discussions were completely in the realm of criticism and commentary. while i argued it constituted Fair Use, chris cavalier played it safe and removed them.

there's plenty of information available on Fair Use but here's a quick primer:

http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter9/9-a.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

rudy.

i agree with rudy. in fact i've actually called getty and wire image to ask about this very topic, auction houses (and ebayers) using their photos as reference material - they seemed as if they could care less...
...

I'm not wanting to start trouble. I just want to make sure I understand.

[indyred]

Re: JoSports did you misspeak???? How many Sanchez jerseys are there???

Hi eveybody,

I double-checked with my lead authenticator, Stu Oxenhorn, who spearheads our photo-matching and authentication services and works closely with Getty Images.

He told me why we don't post the photo-matches: We are prohibited from doing so. Our contract with Getty permits us to offer a Getty Image as a photographic LOA only as part of an authentication process. In fact, if we were asked to make a copy of the photo without the LOA-type information, just as a glossy 8 X 10, we could not. And we could not send the digital photo in downloaded form to anybody, we can only use it for our research/authentication purposes.

We do appreciate the suggestion of improving our descriptions for photo-matched (and in some cases, non photo-matched) jerseys. We'll work on that. Thanks for the feedback.

And a suggestion: Let's please keep the debate constructive, not vitriolic. Constructive criticism, no matter to whom it is pointed, is better for the hobby.

Barry

I figured that might be the case. Thanks for letting us know.

[indyred]

Re: JoSports did you misspeak???? How many Sanchez jerseys are there???

I think its a great topic and I bet a thread like this will make a difference. MeiGray has already said they will now include the photo matches on it's jerseys where they have one in hand. From now on and in future GUU auctions, I bet we will see photo matches in every auction that says it has one.
Stuff like this makes it a better hobby. Half the fun in collecting game used stuff is finding and showing off photo matches.
I have no idea what it costs to get a deal with Getty Images to have access. I would be cool if GUU offered a service to photo match stuff or just be able to print pictures where people already have the image # and did all the work. Just a have them print it for you.
Also with HD TV it is amazing the detail you can see on jerseys and equipment. Another source to match any unwashed modern day jersey that has use on it.
Threads like this make this a great site.

[BarryMeisel]

Re: JoSports did you misspeak???? How many Sanchez jerseys are there???

Hi eveybody,

I double-checked with my lead authenticator, Stu Oxenhorn, who spearheads our photo-matching and authentication services and works closely with Getty Images.

He told me why we don't post the photo-matches: We are prohibited from doing so. Our contract with Getty permits us to offer a Getty Image as a photographic LOA only as part of an authentication process. In fact, if we were asked to make a copy of the photo without the LOA-type information, just as a glossy 8 X 10, we could not. And we could not send the digital photo in downloaded form to anybody, we can only use it for our research/authentication purposes.

We do appreciate the suggestion of improving our descriptions for photo-matched (and in some cases, non photo-matched) jerseys. We'll work on that. Thanks for the feedback.

And a suggestion: Let's please keep the debate constructive, not vitriolic. Constructive criticism, no matter to whom it is pointed, is better for the hobby.

Barry

[MarinersFan34]

Re: JoSports did you misspeak???? How many Sanchez jerseys are there???

MeiGray doesn't get a free pass nor should they. Yes, they should include the photo(s) they used for their Photomatches. At the same time, how many jerseys does MeiGray have in stock thousands? tens of thousands? You compare that to a less than 500 lot auction in which not all items are jerseys or are even called photomatched? While I have not done so yet, I'd actually prefer MeiGray's service of providing a quality photo with your jersey.

Now again, I think MeiGray should have provided photos when they claim a photomatch but when GUU has less than 500 items, the attention to detail should be there. The photomatches should have been posted, esp. in the Romo where there's only 6 photos shown.

Should we remove all of the photos in the photomatched thread on the forum? I mean it's the same thing right, why should ANY of us have to prove we have that photomatch we can just say it is and there's photos out there, go find it yourself.

It really should have been a simple short thread "Where's the photomatch pictures?" "They're right here I'll post them to the auction" Instead we get this long drawn out discussion that is more of a pissing match.

Maybe GUU can quit the BS and stop saying well MeiGray was the example and they don't do it.. Maybe GUU should shut up, man up and post the matches. Instead of going down the same path of they don't do it either.. but.. but.. they don't do it either. Sounds like a little kid not getting his way.

Be THAT company that other ones want to be and then say, they don't do it but we do!

Is it really that difficult? ..I guess it is.

[mvandor]

Re: JoSports did you misspeak???? How many Sanchez jerseys are there???

Robert, you seem to be avoiding both my suggestion and Barry Meisel's comments as to his intentions. It would seem to me a quick consultation with your partners, and a policy change and post regarding same, would be in your and your connsignors' best interests.

Respectfully...

[aeneas01]

Re: JoSports did you misspeak???? How many Sanchez jerseys are there???

i do think meigray ought to show the photomatch in their listings.

nicely put rudy, much nicer than:

none of the jerseys listed as "PHOTOMATCHED" show any photomatches...remove the "PHOTOMATCHED" titles. sell what you say you're selling." b) "if you sell a shirt as "PHOTOMATCHED" then show the photomatch!" c) "5 jerseys billed as being photomatched, not a single photomatch was shown."

...

[aeneas01]

Re: JoSports did you misspeak???? How many Sanchez jerseys are there???

That is a good point. I'm big fan of MeiGray as well, but they don't show photo match itself that I've seen in its listings on their site. Also, for the service, you have to pay extra in most cases. I know when they did auction some LeBron James game worn jerseys on NBA.com. They did say it was photo matched and it would be included in the auction to the buyer, but never had the photo itself in the auction.

exactly, indyred...

meigray lists items as "photomatched" in the their listing titles yet does not include a single image of the photomatch and in many cases doesn't even provide an item description, just photos of the lot. nonetheless rudy feels compelled to single meigray out as the perfect example of how a business should handle photomatches. in fact, despite meigray not supplying any photomatches in their "photomatched" listings, rudy gushes "barry sells you what he says he's selling you."

but when it comes to guua, rudy feels quite differently:

a) "none of the jerseys listed as "PHOTOMATCHED" show any photomatches...remove the "PHOTOMATCHED" titles. sell what you say you're selling." b) "if you sell a shirt as "PHOTOMATCHED" then show the photomatch!" c) "5 jerseys billed as being photomatched, not a single photomatch was shown."

as i posted on the other thread, deciding not to post photomatches was a decision made based on the limitations of the new auction software (only allows 8 photos per lot) and the consignor's input. simple as that. it was my understanding that the consignor wanted to use the limited number of image spaces to showcase the details of his lots (closeups, game wear, etc.) and that he felt simply stating the items were photomatched would suffice given a) the obvious quality of the items b) you would have to be utterly insane to make such a claim regarding such high-profile jerseys with someone like rudy around if they weren't indeed photomatched and c) we could simply provide anyone that requested a look at the photomatches with our findings. so i checked them out myself, easily found what i considered to be photomatches and thought fine. seemed rather benign at the time.

flash forward to yesterday - i noticed that rudy had requested to see photomatches in the guu auction discussion section, albeit not the moment he posted. so i pulled up my photos and photoshop and went to work merging game photos to lot photos while using red circles as little as possible. perfect, just as it was supposed to work. not quite - because i then discovered the other thread after posting the matches. beautiful. tried to explain, fell on deaf ears. alas.

if you would have told me before this whacked debate (jmo) began that meigray lists items as photomatched without providing a single photomatched image, photo reference number or even an item description, just a "please call this number if you have any questions about this jersey or email us here", it wouldn't even have occurred to me to blink an eye. heck, if you told me you can go to meigray's site at this very moment and check out a "photomatched" $12,500 stanley cup flyers jersey listing that features zero photomatched images and a three line description, i wouldn't have blinked an eye either. i would have simply thought, hey, if you wanted more info about the their photomatched shirts, just give them a call and i'm sure they would give you all the info you wanted. no big deal.

but when it comes to guua it's apparently a very big deal, so much so that we get this right out of the box from rudy:

"All of these jerseys are listed as being "PHOTOMATCHED". 1) what is the point of listing an item as "PHOTOMATCHED" and not providing the actual photomatch? if someone went to all the trouble of photomatching those jerseys, then why not post the photomatches so bidders can evaluate them and adjust their bids accordingly?"

conversely, rudy continues to gush over meigray because he'll get to go home with a glossy AFTER the auction and/or AFTER he makes a store purchase! beautiful - no photomatched photos available for viewing with your "photomatched" lots while i'm considering a purchase? no item description either? hey, no problem! but i still get a glossy if i buy, right? mama mia...

...

[BarryMeisel]

Re: JoSports did you misspeak???? How many Sanchez jerseys are there???

Gentlemen,

Thanks for raising great points about listing jerseys as photo-matched, and for the obvious good suggestion.

Unless there is a valid reason we cannot (and I will check with my website staff to see if there is any reason we haven't done so yet) we are going to begin including the photo matches in the description when we advertise a jersey as photo-matched.

FYI, when we advertise a jersey as photo-matched, we are able to provide the photo. But I agree with the suggestions here that we should include the photo-match with the listing for prospective buyers.

Regards, Barry

[kingjammy24]

Re: JoSports did you misspeak???? How many Sanchez jerseys are there???

i do think meigray ought to show the photomatch in their listings. however, while it may not be in the listing, the buyer is sure to get a very nicely done photomatch afterwards. a match that meigray spent its own time and effort producing. is that same case with JO/GUU?

look, initially robert did not say all you had to do was ask. initially he stated that "..it's really very easy to photomatch these things. and it's probably why jarrod doesn't include photomatched images with many of the items he lists on his site with "PHOTOMATCHED" in the title description." so he didn't state that JO has the matches and all you have to do is ask. he obviously and clearly implied that the reason JO doesn't have matches is because its easy for buyers to do themselves. and in fact when JO was asked for matches, what did jarrod post? some were matches, some weren't. it hardly looked like anything anyone had spent much time and effort producing. the romo was piss-poor and the johnson was weak. the portis was a good match as was the brees. they didn't even agree on the ringo so i don't see how they'd been sitting on it this whole time. for $20k, i hope the sanchez buyer got a beautiful, watermark-free, glossy 11x14, rocksolid photomatch and not just instructions from jarrod to "zoom in" on some website. (like everyone's well-versed in image software).

if all anyone had to do was ask, then i really fail to see why this turned into a 22+ post thread with jarrod saying he doesn't have to provide anything and robert waxing poetic about how easy it is for bidders to find their own pics.

rudy.

[mvandor]

Re: JoSports did you misspeak???? How many Sanchez jerseys are there???

BTW, for the GUU Administration: if your goal is to raise industry standards, wouldn't a policy of posting photos supposedly proving a photomatch with listings identified as such be a nice step forward?

Me thinks it would be. And likely will improve bidding, and thus consignor return and your vig.

[kingjammy24]

Re: JoSports did you misspeak???? How many Sanchez jerseys are there???

"how about this rudy - could this be a possibility: the seller has indeed photomatched the items but has simply chosen to only include detailed photos of the actual item instead."

sure it's possible. what does this have to do with you and jarrod? are you saying you guys were sitting on photomatches this entire time? really? so when i made my very first post, rather than simply saying "no problemo chief, we'll post 'em asap. thanks for the request!", the Forum got a colorful earful from jarrod about how he doesn't have to post anything, a song-and-dance from you about how bidders can go find their own matches, and an apparent disagreement between you and jarrod about whether the ringo jersey was or wasn't really photomatched. yeah that totally sounds like a couple of guys sitting on photomatches this whole time. in the case of the romo, there are 2 empty photo slots. so you were sitting on romo photomatches this entire time and simply thought it'd be better to show 2 empty slots instead right? yeah that makes sense. why show a photomatch when you can show blank space instead. oi. to answer your other question as to whether it's possible for this to be the case. with some sellers, sure. with you and jarrod, no.

"ever inquired about one of their photomatched items and asked if they would provide you with a photomatch?"

yes. here were jarrod's responses to my request:

"..take a 1959 topps card zoom in on the left sleeve numeral "5" (here, jarrod gives me instructions on how to match), "It's NOT MT JOB", "I dont have to supply any photos to the auction", "No where state "KINGJAMMY request if you state an item as photomatched then you must supply the photo", "Get off YOUR ASS and search the photo's to prove it wrong", "If you have anymore questions in regards to the photomatches Chris can help".

i would've included more of his great responses but it seems they were magically edited out of the "GUU Fall 2009 Auction" folder. sort of hard to talk about how jarrod responded when GUU apparently edits his responses. good thing jarrod's got the right friends to quickly dismantle the monuments to professionalism that he builds. "more than happy" isn't quite how i'd describe his response to my request for the matches. apparently, jarrod doesn't believe "..if you state an item as photomatched then you must supply the photo". yet you say all i had to do was ask him and he'd happily oblige? yeah. 22+ posts later, everyone's finally obliging very happily.

"my guess would be that josports would be more than happy to oblige and refer you to getty images xyz"

well based on jarrod's actual responses, your guess would be wrong. it's all right there in black and white. until GUU decides to erase it.

"..my guess is meigray would do the same."

well yes but barry meisel is no jarrod oldridge. tell you what, i'll ask barry where his photomatch is. i'll let you know if he tells me:

a) it's super easy to go find the pics myself, as you did

b) to "get off my ass", as jarrod did

rudy.

[indyred]

Re: JoSports did you misspeak???? How many Sanchez jerseys are there???

That is a good point. I'm big fan of MeiGray as well, but they don't show photo match itself that I've seen in its listings on their site. Also, for the service, you have to pay extra in most cases. I know when they did auction some LeBron James game worn jerseys on NBA.com. They did say it was photo matched and it would be included in the auction to the buyer, but never had the photo itself in the auction.

[aeneas01]

Re: JoSports did you misspeak???? How many Sanchez jerseys are there???

rubbish. some guy pays $20k and he has to do the photomatching work? take meigray..if barry sells you a piece as "photomatched" then not only do you get the match but you get the actual getty photo itself (purchased and without the watermark). barry sells you what he says he's selling you.

the fact that it's easy for you robert is no statement on what a seller ought to provide nor is it any statement on the fact that it may not be easy for others. they've paid for a photomatched piece so they ought to get one! common bloody sense.

you say you've got a photomatch? good, show me. you want me to match it myself? then take a good 50% off because that's the minimum of what a solid match is worth. what would JOSports have charged for the sanchez if they had actually provided the match? $40k? $50k? no, they still would've listed it at $20k which means they charge the photomatch price and don't provide any match. they charge the client but don't do the actual work.

if it's so easy, then do it! or stop selling pieces as "photomatched" that don't come with any photomatches.

rudy.

so based on this post and your post in the other thread i gather you feel if an item is advertised as photomatched and the seller opts to not include a photo of the match among the other photos of the item then, by default, the seller a) in effect, is engaging in false advertising b) has no right to refer to the item as photomatched c) obviously never did find a photomatch d) never even bothered to look for a photomatch e) clearly expects the buyer to find their own photomatch and f) unfairly gains from the work of the buyer. is that what you're saying rudy? really? kinda of hyperbolic, no?

how about this rudy - could this be a possibility: the seller has indeed photomatched the items but has simply chosen to only include detailed photos of the actual item instead. and all a perspective buyer has to do, if interested in the item, is ask the seller for additional photos and information which the seller would be more than happy to provide. is there any chance that's what's actually going on? any chance whatsoever? or must it be, can it only be, something much more insidious, dark and nefarious?

btw it's rather interesting that you chose to bring up meigray given meigray happens to list their items as photomatched without including an image of the photomatch among their lot images as well. pretty much exactly how josports lists some of his photomatched items - take a gander:









in fact meigray doesn't even bother to offer any sort of item description whatsoever! under "item details" a show-me guy like yourself would find "paymnet info", "shipping info" and "customer service" which offers this: "please feel free to contact us if you have any questions regarding this jersey". tell me, is this what you had in mind when you stated "barry sells you what he says he's selling you."? seems to me barry isn't saying much about what he's selling you rudy... should we start the same sort of thread about meigray or do they get a pass because of the after-purchase photo one gets?

look, i dig the hell out of meigray - i think they run a first-class operation based on everything i've heard. you clearly like them and i respect your taste. yet for some reason you seem to want to attack josports even though they seem to sell their merchandise in exactly the same manner as meigray (sans the photo w/ purchase).

have you ever done business with josports? ever inquired about one of their photomatched items and asked if they would provide you with a photomatch? my guess would be that josports would be more than happy to oblige and refer you to getty images xyz - my guess is meigray would do the same.

...