The Yankees, baseball and money

[kingjammy24]

Re: The Yankees, baseball and money

..if your team spent the same type of money you would love it.

i think everyone would agree. however, i think what most are commenting on is how the yankees win. people have more respect for skill than for someone whose sole talent is signing the biggest paychecks. when the yankees win a WS its simply because they bought the most expensive players. when other teams win a WS its through real skill in GM'ing, coaching, etc. here's some data i've compiled. below are some years the yankees won a WS (any missing years are due to me being unable to find the payroll data). beside each yankees WS year is their payroll rank:

2009 - highest payroll
2000 - highest payroll
1999 - highest payroll
1998 - 2nd highest payroll
1996 - highest payroll
1978 - highest payroll
1977 - 2nd highest payroll
1956 - highest payroll
1953 - 2nd highest payroll
1950 - highest payroll
1943 - highest payroll
1939 - highest payroll

during the "lost decade" when the billionaire boys club couldn't get their act together, here's how other WS teams did it:

2001 Diamondbacks - 8th highest payroll
2002 Angels - 15th highest payroll
2003 Marlins - 26th highest payroll
2005 White Sox - 13th highest payroll
2006 Cardinals - 11th highest payroll
2008 Phillies - 12th highest payroll

steinbrenner and cashman don't think their way to a WS. they just spend their way there. a shaved ape could do it as long as his wallet was big enough. cashman's spent his entire career with the yankees. send him to the A's or the indians and he'd be in last place every year. so while there's nothing 'wrong' with how the yankees win, there certainly isn't a whole lot to admire about it either.

rudy.

[joelsabi]

Re: The Yankees, baseball and money

cashman's spent his entire career with the yankees. send him to the A's or the indians and he'd be in last place every year.
rudy.

If only the Yankees had Bill Smith as GM, all the extra championships would have hastened change in the revenue rules by now.

[yanks12025]

Re: The Yankees, baseball and money

i think everyone would agree. however, i think what most are commenting on is how the yankees win. people have more respect for skill than for someone whose sole talent is signing the biggest paychecks. when the yankees win a WS its simply because they bought the most expensive players. when other teams win a WS its through real skill in GM'ing, coaching, etc. here's some data i've compiled. below are some years the yankees won a WS (any missing years are due to me being unable to find the payroll data). beside each yankees WS year is their payroll rank:

2009 - highest payroll
2000 - highest payroll
1999 - highest payroll
1998 - 2nd highest payroll
1996 - highest payroll
1978 - highest payroll
1977 - 2nd highest payroll
1956 - highest payroll
1953 - 2nd highest payroll
1950 - highest payroll
1943 - highest payroll
1939 - highest payroll

during the "lost decade" when the billionaire boys club couldn't get their act together, here's how other WS teams did it:

2001 Diamondbacks - 8th highest payroll
2002 Angels - 15th highest payroll
2003 Marlins - 26th highest payroll
2005 White Sox - 13th highest payroll
2006 Cardinals - 11th highest payroll
2008 Phillies - 12th highest payroll

steinbrenner and cashman don't think their way to a WS. they just spend their way there. a shaved ape could do it as long as his wallet was big enough. cashman's spent his entire career with the yankees. send him to the A's or the indians and he'd be in last place every year. so while there's nothing 'wrong' with how the yankees win, there certainly isn't a whole lot to admire about it either.

rudy.

So even though Gehrig, DiMaggio and Mantle were all home grownen players it dont matter becuse they were maing the big bucks. Well they were the top players of the game at the time. The yankees like to give their players large contracts(Jeter,Mo, Jorge).

[xpress34]

Re: The Yankees, baseball and money

On the OTHER side of the coin - yes, I do bitch because the Rockies are CHEAP and won't spend the money it takes sometimes to get deals done - but, in their defense, they have made the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years including a WS berth... that said, my understanding of the 'luxury tax' revenue was to be used to BETTER the team - not update or expand the facilities, etc... well, I'm sure the Rox collect a healthy check for their cut from the Yankees luxury tax dollars, but their payroll hasn't changed in like 5 years - around $54m pretty consistently. So I don't know what they are doing with the money, but it ISN'T going into the team...

Now, as far as the 'Money Buying Championships', obviously the 2001-2008 Yanks proved that to be a falsehood - BUT, money can and does help control who has the advantage of talent. Example - in 2000, the Yankees BOUGHT Jose Canseco's contract for more than it was worth, JUST so that the Red Sox couldn't have his bat to help them compete. In his book, Canseco openly talks about Torre telling him upon his arrival in NY, not to expect any playing time. He was brought in simply to block the Sox from aquirring him. And the Yanks won the WS that year.

On the negative side of just buying players, the yankees have had their share of bruised egos too. Big money means big egos and Prima Donnas. That is why many small and mid market teams have had success - chemistry between the players - and why the Yanks of the 50's and 60's had success- team chemistry.

You have to invest in a player's make up and how he will fit in your clubhouse just as much as you invest into his wallet.

Just my .02

- Chris

[bigtime59]

Re: The Yankees, baseball and money

Why don't you cry us a river like you do all the time. Like i have said many times if your team spent the same type of money you would love it.

My team doesn't spend the same type of money because MY TEAM DOESN'T HAVE THE SAME KIND OF MONEY TO SPEND!
This is why it's about REVENUES not SALARIES and why MLB needs to share all revenues equally among all teams!

[bigtime59]

Re: The Yankees, baseball and money

Agreed.

As I have said time and time again to you bigtime don not be mad at the Yankees for spending the money be mad at your team for not.

You cannot spend that which you do not have!
Revenue sharing is the answer!

[allstarsplus]

Re: The Yankees, baseball and money

winning a WS with an all-star team and the highest payroll in baseball doesn't strike me as a testament to accomplishment. the fact that the yankees didn't do it since 2000 strikes me as an testament to mismanagement and failure. only cashman could blow over $200mm on 4 players (pavano, igawa, giambi, brown) and still have a job and enough money leftover to buy even more superstars. to win a WS other teams have to overachieve. the yankees simply have to not screw up; to get out of their own way.



rudy.

I have to agree with that and Cashman is one lucky man. Also, I don't even think at times they negotiate contracts well which is the job of the GM. Nick Swisher went well above in salary where anyone had predicted and CC Sabathia and AJ Burnett went at the top of projections.

The small market teams have to be more creative and adept at squeezing buffalos off of old nickels.

So do the Yankees go after Matt Holliday and John Lackey now as they are going to possibly drop Damon and Matsui and need a 5th starter?

[BULBUS]

Re: The Yankees, baseball and money

A reason for the Yankees enormous payroll is, when you have young guys that become stars (Jeter, Rivera, Posada), its going to take a lot of money to keep them. The Yankees have the money and they keep and reward their players.

Rudy mentions the payrolls of the last few WS winners. Look at the Phillies, they went from the 12th highest payroll in 2008 before the won, to like the 4th or 5th highest. They had to pay up to retain and reward players. If they are to continue competing with their current team, their payroll will skyrocket.

[joelsabi]

Re: The Yankees, baseball and money

On the OTHER side of the coin - yes, I do bitch because the Rockies are CHEAP and won't spend the money it takes sometimes to get deals done - but, in their defense, they have made the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years including a WS berth... that said, my understanding of the 'luxury tax' revenue was to be used to BETTER the team - not update or expand the facilities, etc... well, I'm sure the Rox collect a healthy check for their cut from the Yankees luxury tax dollars, but their payroll hasn't changed in like 5 years - around $54m pretty consistently. So I don't know what they are doing with the money, but it ISN'T going into the team...

Chris,

As you alluded to, one of the problems with the current system is that those teams that receives money do not put the money back into player salaries. I wish the system can be modified, whether it is installing a salary cap or not giving money to owners that do not use the money towards salaries.

I would think there is an association of fan loyalty, even player loyalty, with the willingness to spend money on player salary. Some teams are not willing to increase team payroll and the disparity of salary is greatest it has ever been. A long time ago, Bob Costa wrote a contoversial book about have both a minimal team payroll and team salary cap. Maybe the time has come to have a commissioner that is willing to look into it or something moving in that direction. Granted the player association have always been against salary cap so it will be a tough battle but Selig is not the man for the job. We have seen how he dealt with steroids.

What I do not want to see is another Steroid like controvery that affects the integrity of the game. bud Selig states that baseball has been seen its greatest popularity while he has been commissioner but at what long term expense. The crapping on history hallowed baseball records and the alienation of baseball fans in non large populated markets?

[mbenga28]

Re: The Yankees, baseball and money

it's rather outrageous when players charge $500 for an 8x10 signed photograph.

[cjclong]

Re: The Yankees, baseball and money

A couple of points
While the Yankees may have had the highest paid players and payroll from the 20's to the 60's everyone of the players was acquired through scouting or trades. The Yankees could not buy talent. They had to find it or trade for it. Any team could have signed DiMaggio, Berra, Mantel, etc. And players were bound to the team they signed with for life, the only way they could leave was through a trade. The Yankees once discussed a trade of Ted Williams for Joe DiMaggio with Boston. Of course the trade was not made, but the only way the Yankees could have gotten a Williams back then was through a trade. The Yankees paid their players like Ruth, DiMaggio and Mantle based on performance. So their payroll had next to nothing to do with their success. It did not help them acquire any players.
The Yankees will tell you that the major reason for their success from 95 on is Mariano Rivera. The three times he blew saves in the playoffs in 97 and 04 and the World Series in 01 they did not go to the World Series or lost it. Most of the time he was flawless and the Yankees won because of it. The playoffs and World Series this year is an excellent example as he was the only closer who did not blow a save or lose a game. And the Yankees won the series. Any team in baseball could have had Rivera. The Yankees considered trading him prior to 95. They were fortunate the did not trade him. The Braves, for instance would probably have won more playoffs and World Series if they had Rivera. The Yankees found him and signed him and had had nothing to do with payroll and is a major part of their success. Switch Rivera from the Yankees to the Angels and the Angels are probably in the World Series.

[staindsox]

Re: The Yankees, baseball and money

Everyone of the players was acquired through scouting or trades.

Not at all true.

1) You could purchase contracts from minor league teams when teams were not affiliated with a specific Major League teams. John McGraw was pissed Jack Dunn didn't let him get an offer in on Babe Ruth. When Dunn later shopped a pitcher to him, McGraw was still pissed off at Dunn and wouldn't deal with him. He ended up missing out on Lefty Grove, who ended up going to the A's. Just another tidbit, Dunn held Grove in Baltimore for 5 years because he had such a high price tag on him...and Dunn was right.

2) These deals weren't just player for player swaps. Teams sold players to other teams (like Babe Ruth). For example, the Browns always began each season in debt and they had to pay it off to start the season. They had to sell a player or two just to get even.

[kingjammy24]

Re: The Yankees, baseball and money

initially, this thread was about "downgrading" yankee WS victories; not according them the same respect as other WS teams that spent 1/4 as much. why would they get the same respect? does it make any sense that they should? common sense says that the yankees winning a WS is simply not the same as a team with half or 1/3 the payroll winning it. the latter is going to command a lot more respect for their win, as they've done a lot more with a lot less. they've had to rely on skill and operating within a budget whereas the yankees did not. there's no way around that. arod, jeter, rivera, teixeira, sabathia, burnett, posada, etc. it doesn't take much skill to assemble an all-star team. fans do it every year. it just takes a lot of money.

cashman has the luxury of signing huge bust after bust after bust and still having enough to keep on signing more superstars. if any other GM signed as many big busts as cashman has, they'd have lost their job and crippled their team for years. javier vazquez, carl pavano, jose contreras, jason giambi, kei igawa, jaret wright, kevin brown, hideki irabu, jeff weaver, etc. this isn't skill. the guy has flushed an entire team payroll down the toilet. its just spending until you eventually win. in cashman's case, it took 8 yrs.

"Look at the Phillies, they went from the 12th highest payroll in 2008 before the won, to like the 4th or 5th highest. They had to pay up to retain and reward players. If they are to continue competing with their current team, their payroll will skyrocket."

in 2008, the year they won they had the 12th highest payroll. in 2009, they went to 7th highest. in 2009, the difference between the yankees and phillies payrolls was $111 million. if $111 million doesn't put you over your competition then you're doing something seriously wrong. but you're right that when a team assembles a world series roster, payrolls increase and thats why most WS rosters don't stay intact for very long. the team wins and within a couple of years they're in a re-building phase again. unlike the yankees who can afford to retain a WS roster every single year.

"While the Yankees may have had the highest paid players and payroll from the 20's to the 60's everyone of the players was acquired through scouting or trades. The Yankees could not buy talent. They had to find it or trade for it."

and when the yankees found or traded for players, did they not also have to be able to afford them? even if free agency did not exist, the idea of buying talent certainly did. how exactly are you going to trade for a player you can't afford to sign? case in point: in 1919, babe ruth demanded a huge raise and said if he didn't get it, he wouldn't play. (dimaggio also was a constant holdout for more money that few other teams could've given him). the owner finally traded him. you think all of the clubs had a fair shot at getting ruth? the whitesox offered shoeless joe and $60k. the yankees offered $125k all cash. you know what frazee, the owner of the red sox, said at the time? "No other club could afford to give me the amount the Yankees have paid for him". so you're saying the yankees never bought ruth? they just "traded for him"? yeah..traded an amount of money no other team had.

"Any team could have signed DiMaggio, Berra, Mantel, etc....the only way the Yankees could have gotten a Williams back then was through a trade..The Yankees paid their players like Ruth, DiMaggio and Mantle based on performance. So their payroll had next to nothing to do with their success. It did not help them acquire any players."

there's a fundamental lack of understanding here. any team could've signed dimaggio, berra, mantle initially but not every team could've afforded to keep them all. the yankees could've gotten williams via a trade because they were one of the few clubs who could've afforded to sign williams without destroying their entire club. the fact that they paid based on performance has absolutely nothing to do with the idea that they had the money to do this and other teams did not. what if the st.louis browns had initially signed ruth and dimaggio? ruth and dimaggio would take off and the browns wouldn't be able to afford to keep them so they'd be traded anyway. the yankees could afford to keep ruth and mantle and dimaggio forever no matter how good they got. payroll didn't help them acquire any players? the $125k all cash offer that the redsox said no other team could match didn't help them get babe ruth? you cannot trade for a player you can't afford. beyond that, you cannot retain a player you can't afford.

and no, not every team could afford to sign rivera, the highest paid closer in baseball history, without destroying their team. you've really completely missed the idea of how money figures into trades and player retention. one closer does not a WS team make. it takes 9 men. rivera wouldn't even enter the game unless his team is winning in the first place. what good would it do the pirates or royals to sign rivera and not have any money left over for a pitching staff or some decent bats? only the yankees could afford to sign rivera AND have enough left over for arod, jeter, texeira, sabathia, etc.

rudy.

[cjclong]

Re: The Yankees, baseball and money

Maybe a few went for cash, but its so few its not worth mentioning. The vast majority of the players came through scouting and signing or straight player for player trades.

[allstarsplus]

Re: The Yankees, baseball and money

Apparently, this discussion was also part of yesterday's ESPN2 and ESPN radio's Mike & Mike In The Morning show when they had Bob Dupuy from MLB on the show.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20091109&content_id=7640984&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb