How to honor the fringe Hall of Famers?

**xpress34** · 02-28-2011, 02:14 PM

Re: How to honor the fringe Hall of Famers?

Originally posted by jake33

MLB
Omar Vizquel, if he can pull of 201 mor ehits, he gets to 3,000 but still probably won't help as he was only an all star 3 times, but 11 gold gloves is amazing, most of the time he was not even the best player on his own team

Fred McGriff - no identity with 1 team 10 hits shy of 2500, 7 HR's shy of 500, but probably won't get in
(if Kirby Pucket played for 3 teams, he would not be a hall of famer I assume)

Don Mattingly - fav player growing up, but wasn't considered "great" long enough by many. The yankee effect helps Mattingly. Actually, I think Derek Jeter would be viewed like a Paul Molitor if he played his whole career with the Royals

Jamie Moyer - Longevity with being "good" for a while doesn't sit well with the voters, but what he was able to do late throughout his career was amazing, he still is eyeing a comeback in 2012.

Julio Franco - no chance at HOF, but he did things in his mid-forties, very very few players would even get the chance to on a tight 25-man roster. Plus a very solid career from start to finish

Vizquel - if he hits 3,000, he will be a lock. He needs 201 more to get ther and his Lifetime avg per season is 159. He has hit in the 90s the past two years so 2 or 3 more years should get him there - or one Ichiro type season! That would put him at 45 or 46 years old to do it, so it is possible for him barring injury. Maybe not 1st ballot, but no player that has hit 3,000 hits has not made the hall with the exceptions being in BOLD with reason below:

3,000 Hit Club:

Cap Anson
Honus Wagner
Nap Lajoie
Ty Cobb
Tris Speaker
Eddie Collins
Paul Waner
Stan Musial
Hank Aaron
Willie Mays
Roberto Clemente
Al Kaline
Pete Rose - Banned by MLB making him ineligible
Lou Brock
Carl Yastrzemski
Rod Carew
Robin Yount
George Brett
Dave Winfield
Eddie Murray
Paul Molitor
Tony Gwynn
Wade Boggs
Cal Ripken Jr.
Rickey Henderson
Rafael Palmeiro - Tested positive for Steroids
Craig Biggio - Not yet eligible

McGriff - based on his stats and what he did in the era that he played, McGriff should be in the Hall. It's a crime (pun intended) that he's not there. McGriff finished with 2,490 hits, 493 home runs, 1,550 RBIs and 1,305 walks. Once upon a time, those were automatic Hall of Fame numbers. Up until the year 2000, there were only 16 players with at least 2,000 hits, 450 homers, 1,500 RBIs and 1,000 walks. All 16 are in the Hall, and most were first-ballot inductees.

Mattingly - I think Mattingly will get there through the Veteran's committee. Like McGriff, he was a top tier 'Super Star' player during his era.

Moyer - if he can get healthy and come back for 2 - maybe 3 - more years, Moyer could very well be the LAST 300 Game Winner we see in our lifetime unless some super stud comes into the game. Moyer is sitting at 267 Wins. He needs 33 to get 300 and considering he averages 14 wins a season (he had 16 for Phi a couple of years ago) it will probably take 3 STRONG seasons meaning he would have to pitch until he's 51 and tie Nolan Ryan's MLB record of 27 seasons. If he gets there, lock him up for the Hall. If he falls short, he will still have to get some consideration based on the body of his work. His closest follower (Andy Pettitte w/ 240 W) just retired, followed by Pedro Martinez with 219 W. No other active pitcher is even at 200 and only 10 other active pitchers are even at 150+ and only 1 of those is above 175 W.

Every pitcher that has hit 300 wins is in the hall with the exceptions being in BOLD with reason below:

Cy Young
Walter Johnson
Grover Alexander
Christy Mathewson
Warren Spahn
Pud Galvin
Kid Nichols
Greg Maddux - not yet eligible
Roger Clemens - not yet eligible (Steroids may keep him out)
Tim Keefe
Steve Carlton
John Clarkson
Eddie Plank
Nolan Ryan
Don Sutton
Phil Niekro
Gaylord Perry
Tom Seaver
Old Hoss Radbourn
Mickey Welch
Tom Glavine - not yet eligible
Randy Johnson - not yet eligible
Lefty Grove
Early Wynn

Franco - Just my personal opinion, but I don't even think of Franco as FRINGE HOFer... but I'll leave that argument up to others...

All the best -

Smitty

**Robert Sanders** · 03-01-2011, 04:23 AM

Re: How to honor the fringe Hall of Famers?

I know that I have to tread a fine line here so as not hijack the thread too much. My apologies if I have done so.

Very often, certain types of awards, such as the Golden Glove, All-Star selection, MVP, CY Young and HOF membership, are hugely subjective and can really only be defended on the grounds that "I believe that skill X is more important than skill y and because player X is superior to his peers in skill x he deserves the award." Controversy therefore arises because other people feel that skill y is at least as important as skill x, if not more so.

In the modern era of juiced players and juiced balls, the reality of the situation is that with the rare exception of people like Ozzie Smith, when votes are cast for these subjective awards, defense is significantly under-appreciated in comparison to a player's ability to mash the ball. At All-Star time arguments about who is the better player at a particular position are almost always exclusively framed in terms of a player's offensive statistics, with little consideration ever given to his defensive abilities compared with others at the same position. As the saying goes, home run hitters drive Cadillacs.

Personally, I believe that Omar Vizquel richly deserves to go to the Hall, but not because of the fact that he has accumulated nearly 3,000 hits, but because of his remarkable defensive abilities, coupled with better than average hitting for a shortstop. Have a look at his offensive numbers. He has a very respectable-looking lifetime batting average of .273, but his on base percentage of .338 means that roughly every three times he has come to the plate he has made an out for his team. This is a very ordinary offensive contribution that has cost his teams dearly over the years in terms of unnecessary outs. By comparison, there are many players in recent times with significantly higher lifetime on base percentages than Vizquel, i.e. Will Clark .384, J.D. Drew .387, Keith Hernandez .384, who will never get a sniff of the Hall.

I haven't even talked about OPS+ yet, which attempts to look at a player's ability both to get on base and to hit for power, while taking into account the relative offensive 'easiness' of the stadiums in which the player has hit in each year. The league average player will have an OPS+ of 100. Omar Vizquel's lifetime OPS+ is just 83. It is therefore safe to say that Omar Vizquel is not an elite hitter, whether or not he ever manages to stay in the game long enough to gather 3,000 hits. What we can say, however, is that he has been a remarkable defensive shortstop who has produced offensively at the position above the standard of his peers. This is the way I frame the argument in my own mind for why I believe he is very deserving of election to the Hall. However, at the same time I also recognize that there are many more people out there who feel that attaining 3,000 hits, regardless of cost and regardless of the greater body of the player's offensive statistics, is in and of itself a defining criterion for induction.

How to honor the fringe Hall of Famers?

How to honor the fringe Hall of Famers?

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