Who's going into HOF?

[JETEFAN]

Re: Who's going into HOF?

So you mean that

Mattingly: 2153 Hits, 1007 Runs, 1099 RBI, 222HR, .305 1 MVP

belongs in the HOF (without a doubt!), while

Cecil Cooper: 2192 hits, 1012 runs, 1125 RBI, 241 HR, .298

does not, because of a .007 difference in batting average??

The HOF does not mean pick one stat that your player does really really well at and ignore the fact that many non-HOF calibre players beat all their others. And, sorry, but a .305 batting average isn't exactly spectacular in baseball history, even for the 1980's. I'm sure there are a hundred players out there who hit higher than .305 for 14 or more years. And is hitting .300 what you want out of a First Baseman? Where is his power and run production? He had almost 1,600 more at-bats than John Mayberry, yet still hit less homers! WHAT MAKES HIM AN ELITE PLAYER?

Ken

I think maybe more All-Star selections, more MVP's, and more Gold Gloves than Cooper might have something to do with it. .....I'll take outstanding defense, along with his offensive numbers! as for Mayberry, why are we even mentioning a .253 hitter??. My point is that if Pucketts numbers were good enough for the Hall, than Mattingly with equal or better numbers should be in as well, along with anyone else with equal numbers. including Cooper. Cooper and Mattingly were very close as far as hitting, but Cooper was no where near the defensive player Mattingly was.

George

[Carlevv]

Re: Who's going into HOF?

Albert Belle

[byergo]

Re: Who's going into HOF?

A, B, & C all far short of the mark.

[JETEFAN]

Re: Who's going into HOF?

Seasons AB BA HR Hits AS GG MVP

Mattingly 14 7003 .307 222 2153 6 9 1

Puckett 12 7244 .318 207 2304 8 6 0


What do we do, drop Puckett from the hall or add Mattingly? Equal if you ask me !!


George

[sylbry]

Re: Who's going into HOF?

Seasons AB BA HR Hits AS GG MVP

Mattingly 14 7003 .307 222 2153 6 9 1

Puckett 12 7244 .318 207 2304 8 6 0


What do we do, drop Puckett from the hall or add Mattingly? Equal if you ask me !!


George

Championships: Puckett - 2, Mattingly - 0

Batting Titles: Puckett - 1, Mattingly - 0

[chakes89]

Re: Who's going into HOF?

Dave Concepcion

[nomarmauerfan]

Re: Who's going into HOF?

Slybry,
Mattingly won a batting championship in 1984. Also, world championships are teams, not individuals. And, others, Cecil Cooper....he was an excellent hitter, but to put him as a similar caliber player as Mattingly is goofy. Mattingly was one of the top 2-3 players of the 80's and the face of a team. Cooper was not. A great hitter, yes, but I don't think its a fair comparison.
We're all looking at stats and that's great. But, if you look at the actual voting criteria, there's a lot more that goes into it. I am as big of a Mattingly fan as you'll find and I want him to be in. But, even he says that it would just be the icing on the cake. I hope someday they'll put him in, but it would be hard to come back from last year when he received less than 10% of the vote.

Mike

[sylbry]

Re: Who's going into HOF?

Slybry,
Mattingly won a batting championship in 1984. Also, world championships are teams, not individuals. And, others, Cecil Cooper....he was an excellent hitter, but to put him as a similar caliber player as Mattingly is goofy. Mattingly was one of the top 2-3 players of the 80's and the face of a team. Cooper was not. A great hitter, yes, but I don't think its a fair comparison.
We're all looking at stats and that's great. But, if you look at the actual voting criteria, there's a lot more that goes into it. I am as big of a Mattingly fan as you'll find and I want him to be in. But, even he says that it would just be the icing on the cake. I hope someday they'll put him in, but it would be hard to come back from last year when he received less than 10% of the vote.

Mike

Mike,

Thank you for the correction. I thought he did but the website I checked prior to posting didn't have him listed as winning a batting title.

Statwise Mattingly and Puckett are close but Puckett's other accomplishments and intangibles are what makes him a HOFer IMO. Mattingly doesn't have two rings. Mattingly never had a game like Puckett did in game 6 of the 91 Series. Mattingly might be considered one of the 15 best Yankees. Puckett is the face of the Twins franchise. And have you ever heard any ballplayer ever say anything bad about Puckett. The guy always had a smile and was friendly to everyone. (Don't know enough about Mattingly to comment here.)

I know intangibles and character shouldn't trump stats but in the end baseball is also about memories and Puckett created some very positive, strong, and lasting ones.

Bryan

[Carlevv]

Re: Who's going into HOF?

Seasons AB BA HR Hits AS GG MVP

Mattingly 14 7003 .307 222 2153 6 9 1

Puckett 12 7244 .318 207 2304 8 6 0


What do we do, drop Puckett from the hall or add Mattingly? Equal if you ask me !!


George

Albert Belle

Seasons 10

AB 5853

Runs 974

Hits 1726

HR 381

RBI's 1239

Avg. .295

His career was also cut short because of an injury. If Mattingly gets in this guy deserves the same treatment. Belle was a dominating force in the game period. I dont want to hear that he wasnt a good guy either. Numbers dont lie.

[nomarmauerfan]

Re: Who's going into HOF?

Bryan,
Don't worry...I'm not one of the ones you have to convince about Kirby. I believe he should be there. He was everything you said and more. A personal story about Kirby...I am a physical therapist in Minnesota and I was treating one of his friends. He asked her to call him while she was at PT. I got on the phone and he said, "Mike, I just want to say thanks for treating my friend. I'm going to send a little something with her the next time she comes in." Well, the next visit, she brings in a signed Puckett bat (game-issued). She smudged the sig after he signed it, but it doesn't matter...a great story from a GREAT man and one of my prized collectibles.
Donnie and Puck were so close in stats, personality, etc., that I think we all like to link them together. In my opinion, they both deserve to be in. Mattingly's only playoff appearance in 1995 was like Puck's Game 6...Donnie hit over .400 for the series with a bunch of RBI's (I can't remember, but I think it was 6). He carried the team and if it wasn't for his bullpen, the Yanks would've advanced. I grew up in NY and never saw another player like Donnie Baseball. I'm sure I hold him in the same regard as you hold Puck. They are just one in a million. And, when you're that big of a fan, you just want to see them rewarded. The voting is subjective, our discussions are subjective...but, to me, Donnie Baseball is and always will be the best player I've ever seen.

Mike

BTW, Slybry, are you going to Twinsfest in a few weeks? My family and I will be there on Sunday in the Mauer line.

[Nathan]

Re: Who's going into HOF?

Mattingly is most similar to the following 10 players:

Cecil Cooper
Wally Joyner
Hal McRae
Kirby Puckett
Garrett Anderson
Will Clark
Jeff Conine
Tony Oliva
Keith Hernandez
Jim Bottomley

Bottomley and Puckett are the only two HOFers, and Bottomley is generally regarded as one of the worst inducted. Puckett would be as well, if not for the following three factors:
1) His exuberant personality and friendly media dealings
2) The abrupt end to his career that caused many to project him over what the next 5-7 years would have held
3) A home run and a catch in the World Series

I loved Puckett, and it's possible that he would have continued on and been enormously productive, but in the basic reality of HOF induction I believe he falls short...or at least should have.

[JETEFAN]

Re: Who's going into HOF?

Bryan,
Don't worry...I'm not one of the ones you have to convince about Kirby. I believe he should be there. He was everything you said and more. A personal story about Kirby...I am a physical therapist in Minnesota and I was treating one of his friends. He asked her to call him while she was at PT. I got on the phone and he said, "Mike, I just want to say thanks for treating my friend. I'm going to send a little something with her the next time she comes in." Well, the next visit, she brings in a signed Puckett bat (game-issued). She smudged the sig after he signed it, but it doesn't matter...a great story from a GREAT man and one of my prized collectibles.
Donnie and Puck were so close in stats, personality, etc., that I think we all like to link them together. In my opinion, they both deserve to be in. Mattingly's only playoff appearance in 1995 was like Puck's Game 6...Donnie hit over .400 for the series with a bunch of RBI's (I can't remember, but I think it was 6). He carried the team and if it wasn't for his bullpen, the Yanks would've advanced. I grew up in NY and never saw another player like Donnie Baseball. I'm sure I hold him in the same regard as you hold Puck. They are just one in a million. And, when you're that big of a fan, you just want to see them rewarded. The voting is subjective, our discussions are subjective...but, to me, Donnie Baseball is and always will be the best player I've ever seen.

Mike

BTW, Slybry, are you going to Twinsfest in a few weeks? My family and I will be there on Sunday in the Mauer line.

Well said Mike, Donnie hit .417, 6 RBI's and had a .708 Slug.!!!!!!

George

[Stefano61]

Re: Who's going into HOF?

Albert Belle

Seasons 10

AB 5853

Runs 974

Hits 1726

HR 381

RBI's 1239

Avg. .295

His career was also cut short because of an injury. If Mattingly gets in this guy deserves the same treatment. Belle was a dominating force in the game period. I dont want to hear that he wasnt a good guy either. Numbers dont lie.

I totally agree with you, Albert Belle should be in the HOF...he had far more "Hall of Fame years" than Dawson and Rice, playing a lot less. I believe that excellence years should be decisive in judging a player performance (agree with McLaughlin of Hardball Times in this), I hate to see players going to the Hall because they play forever and pile up numbers in less than mediocre seasons...Belle had an OPS for his career of .933 (33rd in the history of the game with at least 5000 PA...Rice .854 and Dawson .806)...he was a complete player and the most feared hitter in baseball for a decade, forced to retire when he was still in his prime years, in my opinion that's more than enough for a place in the HOF

[5kRunner]

Re: Who's going into HOF?

I totally agree with you, Albert Belle should be in the HOF...he had far more "Hall of Fame years" than Dawson and Rice, playing a lot less. I believe that excellence years should be decisive in judging a player performance (agree with McLaughlin of Hardball Times in this), I hate to see players going to the Hall because they play forever and pile up numbers in less than mediocre seasons...Belle had an OPS for his career of .933 (33rd in the history of the game with at least 5000 PA...Rice .854 and Dawson .806)...he was a complete player and the most feared hitter in baseball for a decade, forced to retire when he was still in his prime years, in my opinion that's more than enough for a place in the HOF

I'll admit, Albert Belle deserved a lot more consideration than he got. But, Dawson has 6 Gold Gloves to Belle's 0. You could make the argument Dawson was the most feared hitter in the NL for years. And if you argue Belle's career was cut short, you could also argue that playing in Montreal ruined Dawson's knees enough to affect his stats as well.

Anyway, the numbers are the numbers. But, in my opinion the players of the 80's were forgotten because of the steriod era of the late 90's and 00's.

[Nathan]

Re: Who's going into HOF?

I don't think Joey Belle gets serious consideration because his career was too short to merit it. Had he played another 5-9 years at a high level the discussion would be there.

As for Andre Dawson, his career percentages are .279/.323/.482. I don't think he was "great", just "pretty good". It's entirely possible that the injuries prevented him from maximizing his ability, but no HOF outside of hockey puts guys in based on what could have been.