5 of 6 HOF inductees are former Braves

[cjclong]

Re: 5 of 6 HOF inductees are former Braves

To me the big hole in the Braves teams was the closer position. I never understood why the Braves didn't make a real effort to get John Wetteland the World Series MVP in 1996 after the Yankees let him go after the series. He was signed by the Rangers and pitched well for them for several years. He wasn't Rivera, no one else was either, but he was a solid closer, better than anything the Braves had. When you have a team that might have won the world series and may need one piece to get back there and win and don't make every effort to sign that player, I don't understand it.

[danesei@yahoo.com]

Re: 5 of 6 HOF inductees are former Braves

That is why I hate all this sabermetric B.S.

You can take a woefully ineffective relief pitcher like Wohlers and make him look like he was actually good. He wasn't, except for one year. I don't know anyone who wants a relief pitcher with an era of 3.20, 2.55, 4.50, 4.59, 2.09, 3.03, 3.50, 10.18.
He had one good year for the Braves and one decent year, and thats it.

ERA+ and OPS+ aren't exactly Sabermetric numbers. Yes SABR tracks them, but they're pretty much just ERA and OPS adjusted to the league average and park factors.

Wohlers was the Braves closer from 1995-1997. At some point in 1997, he sustained an injury that plagued him into 1998.

1995 - 2.09 (204 ERA+)
1996 - 3.03 (146)
1997 - 3.50 (119)

You can't really call him woefully ineffective. He just had a very short period of maximum effectiveness (like most closers).

1998 - Kerry Ligtenberg 2.71 ERA (151)

John Rocker was the closer from 1999-2001 until he was traded.

1999 - 2.49 (181)
2000 - 2.89 (160)
2001 (until traded) - 3.09 (145)

So, basically the Braves "closer" from 1995-2000 was decent, with only one bad year (1997). While, having Rivera from 1996-2000 as a closer would have been nice for the Braves, the reality is that wouldn't have been a likely outcome. If anything, Rivera would have been pushed through the minors at a younger age as a starter, rather than being groomed as a potential closer.

[Roady]

Re: 5 of 6 HOF inductees are former Braves

That is why I hate all this sabermetric B.S.

You can take a woefully ineffective relief pitcher like Wohlers and make him look like he was actually good. He wasn't, except for one year. I don't know anyone who wants a relief pitcher with an era of 3.20, 2.55, 4.50, 4.59, 2.09, 3.03, 3.50, 10.18.
He had one good year for the Braves and one decent year, and thats it.

[danesei@yahoo.com]

Re: 5 of 6 HOF inductees are former Braves

Avery, was with Atlanta from 1990-1997 and his records were, 3-11 5.64, 18-8 3.38, 11-11 3.20, 18-6 2.94 , 8-3 4.04, 7-13 4.67, and 7-10 4.47. Not that impressive.

Lopez was a on steroids and even with that he only had good years here and there. Nothing consistent.

Klesko, was with Atlanta from 1992-1998. Never had over 93 RBI. Hit 80 + three times, 70 twice.

Mark Wohlers, 1991-1999, era with the Braves, 3.20, 2.55, 4.50, 4.59, 2.09, 3.03, 3.50, 10.18, and 27.00 Not a stellar closer by any means except for 1995 when he had the 2.09 era.

During their Atlanta tenures:
Klesko had a 127 OPS+.
Avery had a 105 ERA+, including his 3-11 5.64 rookie season as a 20-yr-old.
Lopez had a 114 OPS+.
Justice had a 132 OPS+.
Wohlers had a 112 ERA+ and 10.2 K/9.
McGriff had a 128 OPS+.
Gant had a 115 OPS+.

Add the above to Maddux (163 ERA+), Smoltz (127 ERA+) and Glavine (121 ERA+), and one can't really be faulted for expecting more than one World Series ring during the 90s.

As for Wohlers' 10+ ERA (20 IP) at the end of his tenure in Atlanta... By that time, the Braves had John Rocker as their closer. I just didn't think it was appropriate to talk about Rocker when the discussion was the Braves success (appearances in half the WS during the decade) overall, but lack of success in the WS. Cox had a lot of talent to work with. If he was the GM who acquired all that talent, good for him. He was a great GM. However, the lack of rings is what hurts his legacy. The Braves were the Team of the 90s. Growing up in the 90s, I always wondered why they didn't win more WS rings.

[coxfan]

Re: 5 of 6 HOF inductees are former Braves

Regarding the Braves' 1-4 WS record, let's consider the paradox here. The Braves won five NL pennants in 8 years, going 1-4 in the WS. The Yankees, by comparison, won three AL pennants from 2001-2009, going 1-2 in the Series during that time. So which team had the better stretch of those two periods? Some would argue that the team that went 1-2 in the WS was better than the one that went 1-4 But I say the 1-4 team was better, because five league championships is better than three!

The same paradoxical reasoning applies to the College World Series. People criticize Florida State for going to 20 College World Series without winning even one. But I say their 0-20 record is vastly better than a college that went five times and won one, because 20 qualifications is better than five. Teams should be praised for qualifying, rather than criticized for failing when others didn't even qualify.

Cox was general manager before he was manager, and he brought in the HOF talent through strengthening the farm system. He, along with LaRussa and Torre, all exceeded beyond others in each team they were with.

And I believe Cox was accused of pushing his wife one time in a fuss, not "beating". That's not excusable, as my wife and I have never pushed each other in 44 years together. But Ms. Cox now says: "we had one argument in our long marriage, and it got all over the news".

[Roady]

Re: 5 of 6 HOF inductees are former Braves

McGriff was with Atlanta for 5 years 1993 - 1997. When he got too expensive he was gone
He was the best of the three you mentioned while with Atlanta though.

Justice, I have no idea why he gets superstar treatment when the only year that could be considered great for Atlanta would be 1993.

Gant, He was only with the Braves from 1987 to 1993 and if you wanted a .260 BA with 30 HR's he was your man.

Actually my memory was wrong with McGriff. Atlanta traded for him from the Padres for Vince Moore, who? The Padres unloaded him to Atlanta to clear money. The Padre way.
He was allowed to leave Atlanta when they thought he was getting too old and his production was waning.

[Roady]

Re: 5 of 6 HOF inductees are former Braves

Don't forget Steve Avery, Javy Lopez, Ryan Klesko & Mark Wohlers. Then add on Andruw Jones in the second half of the decade. The team had a ridiculous amount of talent, and the 1-4 record in the World Series doesn't reflect well on the management of that talent. If you're going to give Torre credit for the Yankees success, you would equally need to place some modicum of blame on Cox for the Braves lack of success in the WS.

Avery, was with Atlanta from 1990-1997 and his records were, 3-11 5.64, 18-8 3.38, 11-11 3.20, 18-6 2.94 , 8-3 4.04, 7-13 4.67, and 7-10 4.47. Not that impressive.

Lopez was a on steroids and even with that he only had good years here and there. Nothing consistent.

Klesko, was with Atlanta from 1992-1998. Never had over 93 RBI. Hit 80 + three times, 70 twice.

Mark Wohlers, 1991-1999, era with the Braves, 3.20, 2.55, 4.50, 4.59, 2.09, 3.03, 3.50, 10.18, and 27.00 Not a stellar closer by any means except for 1995 when he had the 2.09 era.

[Roady]

Re: 5 of 6 HOF inductees are former Braves

McGriff, Justice and Gant weren't too shabby during the mid 90s.

McGriff was with Atlanta for 5 years 1993 - 1997. When he got too expensive he was gone
He was the best of the three you mentioned while with Atlanta though.

Justice, I have no idea why he gets superstar treatment when the only year that could be considered great for Atlanta would be 1993.

Gant, He was only with the Braves from 1987 to 1993 and if you wanted a .260 BA with 30 HR's he was your man.

[danesei@yahoo.com]

Re: 5 of 6 HOF inductees are former Braves

McGriff, Justice and Gant weren't too shabby during the mid 90s.

Don't forget Steve Avery, Javy Lopez, Ryan Klesko & Mark Wohlers. Then add on Andruw Jones in the second half of the decade. The team had a ridiculous amount of talent, and the 1-4 record in the World Series doesn't reflect well on the management of that talent. If you're going to give Torre credit for the Yankees success, you would equally need to place some modicum of blame on Cox for the Braves lack of success in the WS.

[gingi79]

Re: 5 of 6 HOF inductees are former Braves

I only got to attend one World Series in Atlanta and wish it would have been more. The opportunities were there, but Bobby Cox made a few blunders. Maybe, more than a few. With his team talent, he should have had 3 titles. I didn't really think Cix was very good and didn't like his wife-beating actions. The others were great!

A solid argument could be made that had the Braves had Mariano Rivera as their closer or even if he didn't play for the Yankees, the Braves would have won up to 5 World Series in the 1990's. Not taking anything away from NY but 1996 specifically and 1998 and 1999 to a great degree could very possibly ended with a Braves title rather than a Yanks title.

The fact remains, every great season of Braves baseball post Hank Aaron was under the coaching of Bobby Cox.

It was a great day to be a Bravos fan. And to think Smoltz, Chipper and Schuerholz are still to come! (If Gold gloves count add Andy Jones too )

[Flamechicken]

Re: 5 of 6 HOF inductees are former Braves

The Braves had 3 HOF pitchers and Chipper Jones during that time, not much more.
The only reason Atlanta won what they did was because of Cox's management of ball players who were mostly cut from other teams or would have been bench players on other teams.
The Braves didn't spend very much on filling the roster with top tier talent.

McGriff, Justice and Gant weren't too shabby during the mid 90s.

[Roady]

Re: 5 of 6 HOF inductees are former Braves

I only got to attend one World Series in Atlanta and wish it would have been more. The opportunities were there, but Bobby Cox made a few blunders. Maybe, more than a few. With his team talent, he should have had 3 titles. I didn't really think Cix was very good and didn't like his wife-beating actions. The others were great!

The Braves had 3 HOF pitchers and Chipper Jones during that time, not much more.
The only reason Atlanta won what they did was because of Cox's management of ball players who were mostly cut from other teams or would have been bench players on other teams.
The Braves didn't spend very much on filling the roster with top tier talent.

[Chess2899]

Re: 5 of 6 HOF inductees are former Braves

I only got to attend one World Series in Atlanta and wish it would have been more. The opportunities were there, but Bobby Cox made a few blunders. Maybe, more than a few. With his team talent, he should have had 3 titles. I didn't really think Cix was very good and didn't like his wife-beating actions. The others were great!

[coxfan]

Re: 5 of 6 HOF inductees are former Braves

I guess Smoltz and Chipper will round out that Braves' 14-year run. As a lifelong southerner and Georgia native, I was surprised when, on my trips north, I found Braves-haters during the 14-year run. I think one writer called them "an evil empire in Dixie." I followed the Braves since they came to Atlanta in 1966, and I lived through their first 25 years when they won only two Postseason trips (One under Torre in 1982) and went 0-6 in postseason games. So as much as I value parity in sports, I don't feel guilty about finally having some good times!

One good line: Steve Phillips, when he was Mets' GM, said to Cox and Schuerholtz: "If I ever have to identify you guys in a lineup, I'll have to ask you to face the other way. You've always been in front of me." (Of course, he was kidding, as he didn't expect them to be in any lineups.)

[kellsox]

Re: 5 of 6 HOF inductees are former Braves

It's kind of a shame that John Smoltz pitched that one last season in Boston, as they all could have gone in as one class.

It was a shame I had to watch him pitch that season in Boston