Sports writer who won't vote for Hall of Fame candidates

[commando]

Re: Sports writer who won't vote for Hall of Fame candidates

A player with fifteen All-Star Games and thirteen Gold Gloves should be in the Hall of Fame, period. You can say another player should have won the GG or AS spot any given year, but this is impressive. Thirteen Gold Gloves is the most by a shortstop, and fifteen All-Star Teams is second most for shortstops, behind Cal Ripken Jr.

[Roady]

Re: Sports writer who won't vote for Hall of Fame candidates

A player with fifteen All-Star Games and thirteen Gold Gloves should be in the Hall of Fame, period. You can say another player should have won the GG or AS spot any given year, but this is impressive. Thirteen Gold Gloves is the most by a shortstop, and fifteen All-Star Teams is second most for shortstops, behind Cal Ripken Jr.

Gold gloves are one thing but All Star Games should not be a basis for the HOF. It is a popularity contest mostly.

[Hoosier39]

Re: Sports writer who won't vote for Hall of Fame candidates

Gold gloves are one thing but All Star Games should not be a basis for the HOF. It is a popularity contest mostly.

Yep! I think it's funny when it's ballot time and the sports guys give their reasoning of who should and shouldn't get it and bring up the number of All Star appearances. I'd say starting in the 90's is when it became a popularity contest. And I don't know when it was, probably 10 yrs ago or so, but having one rep for each team is a joke. So no, the number of AS appearances really don't mean much to me if it's from the last 20-25 yrs.

GG's on the other hand, I'm ok with having those in the discussion.

[commando]

Re: Sports writer who won't vote for Hall of Fame candidates

Well, it's nice to hear that the Gold Glove awards might mean something. Is it safe to say that winning thirteen of them over a thirteen-year period means a player was a dominant fielder during this time? Is it also safe to say that the shortstop position is one of the more important positions in baseball when it comes to fielding skills?

[Roady]

Re: Sports writer who won't vote for Hall of Fame candidates

It is safe to say that Ozzie Smith was one of the better fielding shortstops of his day.
It is not safe to say that shortstop is one of the more important positions in MLB. Just as important as catcher? More important than 2nd base? More than center field or third base? The historical numbers do not back that up.
Does the ss always have more balls hit his way in a game than the 2nd baseman or the center fielder? Does a good first baseman who can catch nearly everything that is thrown at him less valuable than a ss who has a quick step? Is a good ss better or more important than an outfielder who can cover ground to catch a ball that others would miss?

It is nearly impossible to measure the importance of one defensive position over another defensive position. It all depends on how good the player plays that position.

If I had to pick one defensive position player who could affect the outcome of game more than any other I would pick the catcher.

If you can prove to me that over the last 100+ years that the ss has been involved in more plays than any other position that has affected the outcome of games then I am all ears. I would guess the first baseman is involved in more plays than any other player in baseball. But first basemen are supposed to be slow and lumbering aren't they. Not very important at all. Funny how they are so important to nearly every play.

Opening the door to Cooperstown to one trick ponies like Ozzie leaves the door wide open for others who excelled at defense and defense alone. Or maybe only hit HR's and nothing else. Or only stole bases like Vince Coleman. After all didn't those guys affect the outcome of the games by excelling at one thing?

When Andruw Jones comes up for a vote, arguably the best outfielder of his generation with a ton of those gold gloves you mentioned, there will be those who will say he does not belong in the HOF. Despite having better numbers in almost all offensive categories than Ozzie Smith.

The door is opened and the HOF is watered down as a result.

[commando]

Re: Sports writer who won't vote for Hall of Fame candidates

That's a great response, Roady... You're one of my favorite posters here.

This may be slightly off topic, but I have a feeling that many of the "vintage" Hall of Fame players before our time were shaped over time to look like mythical legends, but in reality were great -- but very human -- players. The worst offender here is NFL Films, which really did a great job of making it seem like Joe Namath, Y.A. Tittle and Johnny Unitas were supermen who could do nothing wrong. If you go back and watch the unedited games featuring these legends, you'd see just how human these guys really were on any given day!

So we may disagree on the Ozzie Smith thing, but it's nothing anyone will lose sleep over. You have shaped your opinion on solid talking points, and I'm happy to read the things you write.

[Roady]

Re: Sports writer who won't vote for Hall of Fame candidates

I appreciate that commando, I really do.

And I respect your opinion and anyone else's too.

[ShaimOnYou]

Re: Sports writer who won't vote for Hall of Fame candidates

Opening the door to Cooperstown to one trick ponies like Ozzie leaves the door wide open for others who excelled at defense and defense alone.

When Andruw Jones comes up for a vote, arguably the best outfielder of his generation with a ton of those gold gloves you mentioned, there will be those who will say he does not belong in the HOF. Despite having better numbers in almost all offensive categories than Ozzie Smith.

The door is opened and the HOF is watered down as a result.

So I'm guessing you don't believe Bill Mazeroski belongs in the Hall either. Great fielding second baseman, but couldn't hit a lick until he had his biggest at-bat of his career in 1960. Fortunately for him (and Ozzie) they look at things other than just numbers to vote on their fate. Team leadership, clubhouse value (camaraderie) do carry value in the minds of the voters. And winning a World Series with a bat doesn't hurt. I remember Ozzie Smith hitting a devastating bomb against the Dodgers in the play-offs. These guys were ballers. In my opinion, they belong.

In regards to Andruw Jones, he was his own worst enemy. He got tangled up with porn stars, got lazy, and as could be predicted, his numbers fell off the cliff. Then he started team jumping and the bad part of that is because it was out of need, not his own personal desire. No one wanted him anymore. He destroyed his own career, his own legacy. He could have been a lock for the Hall, a 500 home run member, and as mentioned he was loaded in defensive ability. But when you look at the way his career drifted off into the oblivion, it is a big question mark as to whether he truly possesses the attributes of a HOF. I think he falls short based on his WHOLE career, and that's a shame. He didn't "finish".

[Roady]

Re: Sports writer who won't vote for Hall of Fame candidates

So I'm guessing you don't believe Bill Mazeroski belongs in the Hall either. Great fielding second baseman, but couldn't hit a lick until he had his biggest at-bat of his career in 1960. Fortunately for him (and Ozzie) they look at things other than just numbers to vote on their fate. Team leadership, clubhouse value (camaraderie) do carry value in the minds of the voters. And winning a World Series with a bat doesn't hurt. I remember Ozzie Smith hitting a devastating bomb against the Dodgers in the play-offs. These guys were ballers. In my opinion, they belong.

In regards to Andruw Jones, he was his own worst enemy. He got tangled up with porn stars, got lazy, and as could be predicted, his numbers fell off the cliff. Then he started team jumping and the bad part of that is because it was out of need, not his own personal desire. No one wanted him anymore. He destroyed his own career, his own legacy. He could have been a lock for the Hall, a 500 home run member, and as mentioned he was loaded in defensive ability. But when you look at the way his career drifted off into the oblivion, it is a big question mark as to whether he truly possesses the attributes of a HOF. I think he falls short based on his WHOLE career, and that's a shame. He didn't "finish".

Heres one for you. Ron Santo doesn't belong either. Just put in appease Cubs fans. He wasn't that good. And while on the subject of Cubs, Ryne Sandberg doesn't belong either.
Now go crazy and cry a little because someone disagrees with you if you want to.

[Roady]

Re: Sports writer who won't vote for Hall of Fame candidates

Oh, forgot the smiley face. Would hate to really hurt someones feelings.
Here you go,

[Hoosier39]

Re: Sports writer who won't vote for Hall of Fame candidates

What about those that have good hardware and good numbers, but will be penalized because they stayed around too long? Yes, I'm talking about Omar Vizquel. He will be interesting when his time comes.

As for Jones, I don't think he's a HOF'er, but he could've been. I also think they will put into consideration his Japanese career numbers, but just a little. That might help his cause some, and ultimately he could still be playing when his name first appears on the ballot.

[Sportskansascity]

Re: Sports writer who won't vote for Hall of Fame candidates

Vizquel should be in hall of fame, just as Ozzie, Sandberg, and Santo deserve to be in Hall of Fame. If a person is in the hall of fame, they deserve to be in the hall of fame. It's not as if people are throwing darts and you get in by luck or chance

[ShaimOnYou]

Re: Sports writer who won't vote for Hall of Fame candidates

Heres one for you. Ron Santo doesn't belong either. Just put in appease Cubs fans. He wasn't that good. And while on the subject of Cubs, Ryne Sandberg doesn't belong either.
Now go crazy and cry a little because someone disagrees with you if you want to.

Funny thing is, Roady, I agree with most of your comments. Sandberg and Santo were borderline and may very well fall into the "Very Good" Hall category as you put it. I would argue Steve Garvey belongs in the Hall since those guys are in.

I don't want to upset you, but at no point was I ever close to going crazy because we may have one or two areas of difference in opinion. In fact, my eyes never welled up either. I was only commenting on an additional player that would fall into your argument, apparently wrongfully expressing my agreement with you in your eyes. You seemed to take a tad offense to my comment and my quoting you. Relax, I enjoy the conversation on the subject and trust you do too. I am writing back because I don't want you to cry, or go crazy. I care.

Your friend, Chris

[Roady]

Re: Sports writer who won't vote for Hall of Fame candidates

Funny thing is, Roady, I agree with most of your comments. Sandberg and Santo were borderline and may very well fall into the "Very Good" Hall category as you put it. I would argue Steve Garvey belongs in the Hall since those guys are in.

I don't want to upset you, but at no point was I ever close to going crazy because we may have one or two areas of difference in opinion. In fact, my eyes never welled up either. I was only commenting on an additional player that would fall into your argument, apparently wrongfully expressing my agreement with you in your eyes. You seemed to take a tad offense to my comment and my quoting you. Relax, I enjoy the conversation on the subject and trust you do too. I am writing back because I don't want you to cry, or go crazy. I care.

Your friend, Chris

Thanks Chris. Sorry I took offense. I took you post as confrontational and I clearly was mistaken.
I agree with you on Steve Garvey too. He should be in especially with some of the others that are in. Same with Alan Trammell.

[BU54CB]

Re: Sports writer who won't vote for Hall of Fame candidates

Heres one for you. Ron Santo doesn't belong either. Just put in appease Cubs fans. He wasn't that good. And while on the subject of Cubs, Ryne Sandberg doesn't belong either.
Now go crazy and cry a little because someone disagrees with you if you want to.

Just curious, who was a better second baseman than Sandberg during that era? Also, what's your case for Alan Trammell?