Pete Rose poll on ESPN front page

[godwulf]

Re: Pete Rose poll on ESPN front page

Now that you mention it, I remember now Mike Schmidt ruffling some feathers, to say the least, when he talked about Pete Rose's situation in his own HoF acceptance speech.

And I will do some further "homework" on Cobb, and I sincerely hope that what I said about him turns out to be wrong.

[Mark17]

Re: Pete Rose poll on ESPN front page

If Rose had ever bet against a team that he was playing for or managing, I'd say let the lifetime ban follow him to the grave; that's not the case.

If Rose bet on his own team some of the time, but not all of the time, then the games he was betting on them, he was more apt to use his better players, leave his best starters in there, go to the bullpen earlier, and so on.

The games he did not bet on his own team, he'd be more likely to give his best guys a rest, pull a top starter early to save his arm, maybe go with a lesser reliever if the game wasn't close.

So I'd say, when you bet on your own team some of the time, the games you don't bet on them, you are, in a sense, betting against them.

[earlywynnfan]

Re: Pete Rose poll on ESPN front page

I've always said to put Rose in the HOF and stamp on his plaque "Bet on baseball as a manager."

Jackson took the gamblers' money, that's pretty guilty in my book.

Ken

[Roady]

Re: Pete Rose poll on ESPN front page

If Rose bet on his own team some of the time, but not all of the time, then the games he was betting on them, he was more apt to use his better players, leave his best starters in there, go to the bullpen earlier, and so on.

The games he did not bet on his own team, he'd be more likely to give his best guys a rest, pull a top starter early to save his arm, maybe go with a lesser reliever if the game wasn't close.

So I'd say, when you bet on your own team some of the time, the games you don't bet on them, you are, in a sense, betting against them.

That is an outstanding point and one I not given any thought to.
Thanks for the lesson.

[Skizzick]

Re: Pete Rose poll on ESPN front page

If Rose bet on his own team some of the time, but not all of the time, then the games he was betting on them, he was more apt to use his better players, leave his best starters in there, go to the bullpen earlier, and so on.

The games he did not bet on his own team, he'd be more likely to give his best guys a rest, pull a top starter early to save his arm, maybe go with a lesser reliever if the game wasn't close.

So I'd say, when you bet on your own team some of the time, the games you don't bet on them, you are, in a sense, betting against them.

Fair point, but even if they wanted to keep the lifetime ban from being associated with a team, why can't they just put him in the Hall of Fame. It is a separate organization from the MLB anyway. They only keep Rose and Jackson out of the Hall of Fame at the behest of the MLB.

[ShaimOnYou]

Re: Pete Rose poll on ESPN front page

This is really simple.

Just elect California Governor Jerry Brown as Commissioner of MLB. He's as dumb as a rock, liberal as all get up, will never support anything built on a foundation of moral values, and elevates the word "wasteful" to a whole new atmosphere. Heck, he constantly supports legislation which breaks the laws of the state he's swore to govern! But he's got a bleeding heart for anyone who cries "foul" no matter how wrong or weak that individual's platform is. Pete would be reinstated within hours of Brown's appointment.

Back to the argument. Peter Edward Rose. He is ignorant, arrogant, and abused his privileges as a manager while breaking the Cardinal sin of the game he's supposed to love and respect. Problem is, Pete Rose is too numb between the ears to even understand what is involved with displaying "respect" for the game.

That said, he is also pretty much a harmless guy, and his sins against the game are like anything else. You do the crime, you do the time. He's done his, hasn't he? 25 years and counting. He will probably never fully accept what he did as heinously criminal against the game because his brain doesn't grasp it in it's most simple form, in black and white in the MLB baseball rule book. To him, there was never any intent to "cheat the game" by betting on them, only desire to win some coin because he was "betting on his men", and thinking he could beat the house as an insider. Wrong? Sure. Harmful to the game? In undiscovered secrecy, not really if truth be known. Certainly could have been if he eventually changed his managerial practices to increase his chances of winning. But there is no proof he ever did that. And evidence uncovered actually supports the argument against that, that he in fact didn't do anything other than just bet on teams (and pitchers) he "thought would win that day".

In his defense, he wasn't sophisticated enough from the neck up to engage in a gambling system to cheat the game. Even if he was, in light of ALL the evidence found against him, he didn't. I personally don't believe he ever considered cheating MLB by modifying the outcome of even one single game for financial gain, other than to win it outright. WHY would he? He was "The HIT KING", just a highly driven super-competitive A-personality type who achieved the pinnacle of success as the all-time hit leader in MLB. Baseball made him famous, rich. His personality carried with it the desire for more competition after retirement as a player. So, as many do, he turned to gambling. After all, he was "the man" and knew he could "beat the house"! Why would he turn on it in a nasty way? He is more likely guilty of riding his fame by carrying entitlement with his success to do as he saw fit. Self-proclaimed as "baseball's best ambassador", it simply doesn't cross his wiring to destroy the fabric of the game by cheating the outcomes of the very reason it exists: To play the games and be the best! So in HIS MIND, what harm did he cause the game by betting along with his efforts to win?

Yes, he broke the rules, and he's paid and is STILL paying a humiliatingly long sentence for it. At this point, what is there left to gain from keeping him banned? The point has been made. The "lesson" established for all to have as an example to refer to until the end of eternity. Reinstate the poor simpleton louse, for he knew not what he had done. I've met Pete several times. He's actually a really nice louse. A character, but a nice guy who will take time to talk to you ALL ABOUT baseball. He has apologized for what he did. I think he gets it now. After all, it is his life. It would be merciful to see the people in charge of it not make it his death.

[danesei@yahoo.com]

Re: Pete Rose poll on ESPN front page

If Rose had ever bet against a team that he was playing for or managing, I'd say let the lifetime ban follow him to the grave; that's not the case.

As Mark17 mentioned, when you don't bet the same amount on your team in every game they play, you're betting against the team any time you choose to bet less on them. This is the same concept as bet sizing in blackjack.

In the early '80s, both Mantle and Mays were placed by Commissioner Bowie Kuhn on the "permanently ineligible" list for being associated in some way with a gambling casino.

For one, Kuhn's decision to ban them for working in casinos was ridiculous. Mantle had been retired for 14 years and Mays for nine. Neither had any direct influence on the outcome of baseball games. By contrast, Rose set the line-up, made in-game strategy decisions, decided the pitching staff, etc... Oh, and he even bet on games while he was a player, by his own admission in his book My Prison Without Bars.

It was obvious that Kuhn was wrong in his decision, since Peter Ueberroth removed the ban as soon as he became commissioner. By contrast, Fay Vincent didn't reverse the Rose decision, nor has Bud Selig. Also, if Selig decides to reinstate Rose as his last act, I hope the next commissioner immediately bans him again. If Selig were going to reinstate Rose, he should have done it well before he decided to retire.

[brianborsch]

Re: Pete Rose poll on ESPN front page

Just make it easy. Rose messed up. Bad. He should be kept out. Just like Bonds, McGwire, Arod etc. Examples need to be made if we don't want history to repeat. They all cheated or broke the rules knowingly. That in my opinion omits your entrance into the HOF.

[ShaimOnYou]

Re: Pete Rose poll on ESPN front page

Wow, tough crowd. I guess the poor louse should just go crawl under a rock somewhere and dry up.

That's OK, I'm a Ty Cobb fan anyways. I always prefer a racist, a guy accused of killing another human being, and someone who had very few (if any) real friends at the time of his death. Why? Because he never bet on baseball, by golly! Yep, that's my kind of man. Rose can rot.

[Roady]

Re: Pete Rose poll on ESPN front page

Wow, tough crowd. I guess the poor louse should just go crawl under a rock somewhere and dry up.

That's OK, I'm a Ty Cobb fan anyways. I always prefer a racist, a guy accused of killing another human being, and someone who had very few (if any) real friends at the time of his death. Why? Because he never bet on baseball, by golly! Yep, that's my kind of man. Rose can rot.

Ty Cobb was not a racist and not any proof can be found that proves he was.
Every uneducated person who watched that stupid movie based on the book written by that broke writer needs to do some homework.
That same author wrote a totally different book about Cobb when Cobb was alive after spending a lot of time with him.

[yankees506]

Re: Pete Rose poll on ESPN front page

Rose should not die without being in the hall of fame, murderers at times don't have to serve 20 year sentences. Enough is enough he deserves his day in Cooperstown (not having to sign autos down the street)

[ShaimOnYou]

Re: Pete Rose poll on ESPN front page

Ty Cobb was not a racist and not any proof can be found that proves he was.
Every uneducated person who watched that stupid movie based on the book written by that broke writer needs to do some homework.
That same author wrote a totally different book about Cobb when Cobb was alive after spending a lot of time with him.

Ty Cobb was a one-of-a-kind racist.

He hated all mankind.

[Roady]

Re: Pete Rose poll on ESPN front page

Ty Cobb was a one-of-a-kind racist.

He hated all mankind.

According to that fantasy book written by that chareton.

I guess I get tired of mans name being trashed and ruined by people spreading a rumor.

Ty Cobb was a warrior on the field. He likened it to going to war.
That doesn't make him a racist.

[Roady]

Re: Pete Rose poll on ESPN front page

According to that fantasy book written by that chareton.

I guess I get tired of mans name being trashed and ruined by people spreading a rumor.

Ty Cobb was a warrior on the field. He likened it to going to war.
That doesn't make him a racist.

....charleton I meant.

[Skizzick]

Re: Pete Rose poll on ESPN front page

According to that fantasy book written by that chareton.

I guess I get tired of mans name being trashed and ruined by people spreading a rumor.

Ty Cobb was a warrior on the field. He likened it to going to war.
That doesn't make him a racist.

No, likening baseball to going to war doesn't make a man racist.

However, beating up a crippled black spectator does.