HOF Voting

[both-teams-played-hard]

Re: HOF Voting

If Canseco's game used stuff is going down in price, I will be happy to take it off of anyones hands.

In my eyes Canseco is a hero for his role in exposing steroids. In time, he will be regarded as a mythical being. The Hall of Fame means little to the value of a player's memorabilia. It did matter 15 or 20 years ago. Ripken memorabilia should not go up in value because of HOF induction. In terms of "speculation" or "investment potential", the memorabilia of a so-called "future hall-of-famer" seems to have more value.
Also, there are tons of collectors of Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe. The HOF is losing its street-cred.

[sylbry]

Re: HOF Voting

I just have as problem with the current system. If you are really good for a long time you get showered with glory. But if you are dominant for a shorter period of time you get the shaft.

You mean like Bert Blyleven and Sandy Koufax?

[JasonM33]

Re: HOF Voting

Exactly.

I place a high value on players who were dominant forces in the league. I'm talking about players that pitchers or hitters feared and that opposing managers had to plan around.

[Cardinals5]

Re: HOF Voting

Hey guys,

I'm fairly new to this forum but had a couple of ponts to make:

1. Those of us affected by falling memorabilia values of players such as McGwire, Canseco, Palmeiro, etc. should get together and file a class action lawsuit against the envolved players to recover money lost due to their direct actions. After all, class action lawsuits are filled everyday by a group of people affected as a direct result of something or someone. If these players had not done steroids, their values would have held steady over time. Just a thought.....Any lawyers listening?

2. Why no support for Tommy John? I feel that the surgery he pioneered has led to the enhancement of the sport of Baseball and has prolonged many Major League careers. Isn't the Hall of Fame for people who have been Pioneers in their sport?

Best wishes to you all....

Steve

[whatupyos]

Re: HOF Voting

Hello all:

I thought I'd chime in on my thoughts on the Hall of Fame. First off, I don't care about all the McGwire haters out there. I respect the Canseco fans out there, they stick by there boy so hats off to you Canseco fans. The one thing I have to say about Canseco is its a shame to rat on your fellow ball players. Where is the brotherhood like you see in the military? The Police force? Isn't there an unwritten law, like baseball, which has many unwritten laws, not to rat?! The only way I can tolerate a rat is if it is saving someones life! But thats just me, if you can live with yourself rating on people, then fine, I just hope you can sleep at night! Personally I think McGwire got screwed!! It's a darn shame to condemn a man for doing nothing wrong!!! As I said once before, he has never been found guilty!! And, what if he did use steroids? It wasn't illegal in the game!!!!!! If it was such a big deal, baseball would have had a ban on it from the get go!!! Are you going to punish people because you think someone used. No one can tell for sure when the steroid era began. And, might I add, just becasue you use steroids doens't mean you're a huge guy!!! You can still be a buck eighty five and be on roids!!! You're always going to have people try and cheat the system now, oh, and there's no testing for HGH, I could guess there are still tons using performance enhancers. Should you ban protein drinks too? They could help build muscle...uh oh, better not vote for anyone suspected of drinking protein!!!!! I read an article that said that baseball is strict in making sure people know that you're only to critique on the players performance!!! Not what you think he may have done, or by invoking their 5th amendment rights!!!! Trying to send a message?? I got a message for the people who are happy McGwire got such poor votes but I can't remember what you can or cannot say without getting into trouble on here, so I won't say it...people are too sue happy and have nothing better to do than sue, where is the thick skin real men should have? Fact is, his numbers are there, comparable to Reggie, I believe there were two others in the Hall, but forgot who, they were spoken about on a previous forum. Anyway, I'm not sure if this all makes sense, I'm just livid!!!! McGwire deserves to be in the Hall this year or at least next. Qutie frankly, all the others ahead of him are boring!!! Bert, Andre, Goose..hahaha, need I say more, Steve Garvey? Come on are you kidding me?!?! Jim Rice? Ridiculous!!

Aaron

[Yankwood]

Re: HOF Voting

Hello all:

I thought I'd chime in on my thoughts on the Hall of Fame. First off, I don't care about all the McGwire haters out there. I respect the Canseco fans out there, they stick by there boy so hats off to you Canseco fans. The one thing I have to say about Canseco is its a shame to rat on your fellow ball players. Where is the brotherhood like you see in the military? The Police force? Isn't there an unwritten law, like baseball, which has many unwritten laws, not to rat?! The only way I can tolerate a rat is if it is saving someones life! But thats just me, if you can live with yourself rating on people, then fine, I just hope you can sleep at night! Personally I think McGwire got screwed!! It's a darn shame to condemn a man for doing nothing wrong!!! As I said once before, he has never been found guilty!! And, what if he did use steroids? It wasn't illegal in the game!!!!!! If it was such a big deal, baseball would have had a ban on it from the get go!!! Are you going to punish people because you think someone used. No one can tell for sure when the steroid era began. And, might I add, just becasue you use steroids doens't mean you're a huge guy!!! You can still be a buck eighty five and be on roids!!! You're always going to have people try and cheat the system now, oh, and there's no testing for HGH, I could guess there are still tons using performance enhancers. Should you ban protein drinks too? They could help build muscle...uh oh, better not vote for anyone suspected of drinking protein!!!!! I read an article that said that baseball is strict in making sure people know that you're only to critique on the players performance!!! Not what you think he may have done, or by invoking their 5th amendment rights!!!! Trying to send a message?? I got a message for the people who are happy McGwire got such poor votes but I can't remember what you can or cannot say without getting into trouble on here, so I won't say it...people are too sue happy and have nothing better to do than sue, where is the thick skin real men should have? Fact is, his numbers are there, comparable to Reggie, I believe there were two others in the Hall, but forgot who, they were spoken about on a previous forum. Anyway, I'm not sure if this all makes sense, I'm just livid!!!! McGwire deserves to be in the Hall this year or at least next. Qutie frankly, all the others ahead of him are boring!!! Bert, Andre, Goose..hahaha, need I say more, Steve Garvey? Come on are you kidding me?!?! Jim Rice? Ridiculous!!

Aaron

The "wasn't illegal in the game" argument is one of the flimsiest, often stated arguments of all time. It was illegal, period!!! I'm not sure if there's a handbook somewhere that states that murder is illegal on the field of play, but does it really have to? If McGwire hasn't been found guilty yet, so be it but if a voter has reason to suspect that he may have been, that is his right as a human being. And if that is reason enough for a voter to withhold his vote, that too, is his right as a voter. We all have varying moral and ethical values that we find important. We can discuss the degrees by which we agree or disagree, but that is up to the discretion of each voter to weigh. The fact that his vote total was so low is an indication that MANY of the voters have a problem with Big Mac.

[staindsox]

Re: HOF Voting

You're right Yankwood. Let's remember Joe Jackson was found not guilty in a court of law, but was expelled from the game. Baseball has it's own law.

[JasonM33]

Re: HOF Voting

Everyone has a right to their opinion so no one is wrong here. If someone is sickened by steriod users and doesn't think they belong in the HOF then that's fine. What I don't like though is the hipocracy of crapping on some players and giving others a pass. The sports writers have been doing this a lot lately. To say McGwire doesn't belong in the hall but Bonds does is nonsense.

Here is a fact......we do not know who took what, whenthey started, or to what degree it helped them.

We dont know who's clean either so to say that so-and-so is clean because he doesn't weigh 270 is a mistake. Saying that Bonds would have been a Hall of Famer without steroids implies that we know when he started using. That's not possible. Even if we did know for sure there's no garauntee that he wouldn't have gotten injured or that he would have continued to play at the same level. Who knows if he would have been a Hall of Famer? It's all speculation. Who knows when Big Mac started using. Was he clean in 1987 when he hit 49 home runs? If he could hit 49 homers when he was clean, then why couldn't he have continued to put up those type numbers while not juicing for the next 10 to 15 years? After all, he's supposedly a single tool player who only hit for power and couldn't do anything else. We don't know. It's all speculation. I say, you either blame everyone or no one. It's not fair to pick and choose.

-Jason M

[BoneRubbedBat]

Re: HOF Voting

Being a member of the Hall of Fame is a priveledge, not a right. There are many tangibles involved other than numbers when gaining acceptance into an institution. Just because someone has a 3.9 GPA doesn't mean they will automatically get into the college of their choice, especially if they have been caught lying, cheating, or withholding information during their interview.

[gameused]

Re: HOF Voting

Big Mac???

[TNTtoys]

Re: HOF Voting

I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in as well. I do have a lot of the same opinions as previously posted by other board members, so I will try to keep it to new points that have not yet come up.


POINT #1
---------

Back in 1998, there was plenty of skepticism as to how McGwire became so strong. Could it just be andro? or could it be something more extreme? Same holds true for Sosa -- how could someone with no history of hitting for power all of a sudden be a dymano -- much larger than ever before, hitting 20 Home Runs in the month of June, etc. Again, there was speculation.

Was anything done? No.

Reason - After the 1994 strike crippled baseball, the sport needed something big to revitalize interest. And that interest came in the historic McGwire/Sosa home run chase. Was any baseball writer out there in their right mind willing to challenge the source of their power? No, because what they were doing was good for baseball.

My point -- Now that baseball has turned the corner, the same hypocrites who turned a blind eye to what could have been happening now have it in for those very players who they credit for putting the game back on the map. It's not even been 10 years, and they are now condemning the very heroes who they thanked for their accomplishments. This is disgusting.



POINT #2
---------

Baseball never had the testing of these types of substances before. And I do concur that it doesn't make it right to take a banned substance just because there was no way of getting caught doing so... but what I am saying is that there is a lot to this whole steroid saga that we don't know and probably may never know. Is there anyone that is currently in the hall of fame or on the ballot (or even coming up on the ballot in the next few years) that has taken a banned substance? You would have to be completely naive to say no. Someone on the board mentioned earlier that "you don't have to be 270 pounds to have been on a steroid"... but it's pretty stereotypical that those are the types of characteristics one looks for -- that classic slugger type -- like McGwire. Call him an easy target if you will... but the most comical aspect to this saga I think has come out in recent years is the list of names of those who were actually found to be using the substances -- Jason Grimsley??? Alex Sanchez??? Not exactly burly strong men are they? How many others like these guys have slid under (or will slide under) the radar just because it is not obvious by their physique...

[CansecoPower33]

Re: HOF Voting

So, McGwire is out but I've read a few articles that are making excuses for why they are going to vote Bonds in. This is nonsense. I'm boycotting the HOF. I won't darken the door of that place.

Amen.

HOF voting is but two things, a blatant popularity contest and a set of double standards. I've given up on the Hall a long time ago.

[Yankwood]

Re: HOF Voting

Amen.

HOF voting is but two things, a blatant popularity contest and a set of double standards. I've given up on the Hall a long time ago.

We should not let our fury get in the way of two very important points which I will now make.
1. Nothing is perfect and there will never be a perfect system for inductions, and...
2. It's still a great place which any and every hardcore baseball fan should attempt to visit.
I have been there probably 10 times at least. It's only a 3 hour drive for me and although nothing about it is exactly as I want it, I enjoy it immensely every time I go. I feel bad for those who live too far away. I consider myself VERY lucky to have the opportunity to visit.

[Nathan]

Re: HOF Voting

The problem isn't the BBWAA voting. In fact, I'd venture to say that the vast majority of players elected by the BBWAA are absolutely worthy. It's the Veterans Committee selections that defy logic (Phil Rizzuto? Jim Bottomley? Jesse freakin' Haines?)

I believe that one reason for Lee Smith's lower numbers than Gossage or Sutter is the number of one-inning appearances he had to get those saves. Smith appeared in 1022 games for 1289+ innings.

The better question is whether the BBWAA voters felt that McGwire is unworthy because of steroid accusations or simply because a lot felt he's not truly a HOF-caliber player. McGwire had a .263 career batting average, which is one-thousandth of a point higher than Ozzie Smith (whose selection was derided because "The guy batted .262!") with 12 fewer Gold Gloves. He had a .394 career OBP, which is definitely something that works in his favor, and the home runs totals are terrific. The sum of the parts is, in my opinion (and keep in mind this is coming from a Cardinals fan), a marginal candidate. He's less deserving than Gwynn and Ripken by a decent margin.

[JasonM33]

Re: HOF Voting

OK, so lets forget about steroids for a moment. If McGwire was a marginal Hall of Famer then I don't wnt anything to do with the place. McGwire was a dominant force in baseball for years. He got on base, and he drove in a lot of runs. Runs win games. Hit hit many a game winning home run including one in the World Series. His teams won a lot of games and he won awards. If he isn't worthy of getting in then they should shut the doors.