Roger Maris and Hank Aaron HR champs?

[Roady]

Re: Roger Maris and Hank Aaron HR champs?

Roady. I'm glad you don't believe that the M&M boys were on Roids. That was just really out of left field. Maris was not a one year wonder, but he was hurt most of his career. He was MVP in 1960 with 39 HRs and 100+rbis. He hit 61 in 61. Then the next year hit 33 and had 100 rbis in 1962. All his other years he missed significant time with the Yankees. After he hurt his wrist in 1965, he was never the same. Lost all his power. Without all the injuries before the Yanks, during the Yanks, and with the Cards, I think he would be a definite HOF. But we'll never know. It was also a perfect fit for Maris in Yankee Stadium. Short porch in RF and he was a great pull hitter. And what was huge too, was MANTLE batting behind him. He always got pitched to.
I think Roids were around in the 60's but mostly in the Soviet Union, and in a few sports such as the Olympics and Football. It took awhile before they found there way into baseball.

But I do think the M&M boys were on roids, at least in 1961. I just said that I have zero proof, just anecdotal evidence at best. I could never prove it in court.

[Roady]

Re: Roger Maris and Hank Aaron HR champs?

Oh, and anabolic steroids were first developed in the 1950's.

[teddy406]

Re: Roger Maris and Hank Aaron HR champs?

Greenberg faced a lot of racism. M & M didn't even know what Roids were, my man. Maris was smoking 3 packs a day all during his NY years. But, people can believe whatever they want Roady. Was Pete Rose framed too? Ha. Talk to ya later.

[Roady]

Re: Roger Maris and Hank Aaron HR champs?

Greenberg faced a lot of racism. M & M didn't even know what Roids were, my man. Maris was smoking 3 packs a day all during his NY years. But, people can believe whatever they want Roady. Was Pete Rose framed too? Ha. Talk to ya later.

I try not to talk in absolutes such as M&M didn't even know what roids were. That would require me to know their thoughts and that is impossible to know.
Read up on Mantle's doctor who injected him in 61. I believe they were both experimenting that year with roids, I could be wrong. Probably doesn't matter in the end.
Pete Rose had an addiction to gambling. I have no idea if he bet against his own team as some say he must have. I know betting of any kind is against the rules of baseball and there is a sign in every locker room reminding players of that fact.
Rose had an ego that made him one of the best there ever was on the diamond. Unfortunately that ego like many others was also self destructive.
I truly hope Rose gets into the HOF before he dies or I die. I think he has paid his dues. I would also like to see Shoeless Joe Jackson get in.

[cjclong]

Re: Roger Maris and Hank Aaron HR champs?

Regarding the charge, with no evidence, that Mantle and Maris were steroid users in 1961. There have been numerous incidents over the years where players in all sports had a career year that they never equaled again. Nothing unusual about that. In 1961 not only was the season increased to 162 games from 154 but the American League added two new teams, the LA Angeles and the Washington Senators. All the existing AL teams had to put up players on their teams that were subject to draft by the new teams. This diluted the pitching as their were a number of pitchers that year in the AL that would have been in the minors otherwise. So the pitching was not as good that year and over a longer season. A number of players like Norm Cash and Jim Gentile and John Blanchard had career years that they did not repeat again, not just Maris. Maris was playing against inferior pitching over a longer season and, because he was batting ahead of Mantle, he was getting good pitches to hit. No one was going to walk Maris to pitch to Mantle and Maris did not receive a single intentional walk all year. Also, Maris was a dead pull hitter in the old Yankee stadium where the right field line with a low wall started at about 296 feet and only about 340 in right center, a huge aid to a hitter like Maris. You can call Maris record at the time a fluke, but you can't say he didn't earn it honestly (well I guess you can because you did). As for Mantle, he had hit over 50 home runs in 1956 in a shorter season. Was he using steroids in 56 too?
Roady, in your first post you said you "think" Mantle and Maris used steroids. How would you like it if someone accused you of something negative with no real proof, just speculation, because they "think" you did something wrong. At least in the court system we have to prove something, not just speculate with no hard evidence, but I guess that doesn't apply to a sports blog.

[teddy406]

Re: Roger Maris and Hank Aaron HR champs?

Roady is the only one in the world who holds to this theory. It's funny I think. BUT in regards to the inferior pitching in 1961 because of the expansion season-that has been researched and the facts show that the pitching was no better or worse than any other expansion year. There has been plenty of expansion years after 1961 and HR records were not set again in those seasons. We got to quit finding ways to discount what Maris did in 1961. The best two reasons: Maris had an unbelievable year getting the ball up in air and over the fence during his second MVP Season. 2nd-he had Mantle batting behind him so he got pitched to. I just leave it at that.
HR CHAMP MARIS

[cjclong]

Re: Roger Maris and Hank Aaron HR champs?

I'm not knocking Maris. He hit 61 home runs and nobody else did that for over 30 years. But you partially make my point. You said the pitching was no worse than any other expansion year. BUT the pitching in expansion years is generally worse than non expansion years which gives hitters an advantage which Maris took advantage of as did several other American League hitters. Maris hit in an expansion year, he was a pull hitter in Yankee Stadium with its short right field and he hit ahead of Mantle and got good pitches to hit. And its to his credit that he took advantage of those things. My point was that if you are looking for reasons Maris hit 61 home runs that year those are legitimate reasons that Maris broke the record rather than the bogus steroid theory. Not intended to be a knock on Maris.

[Roady]

Re: Roger Maris and Hank Aaron HR champs?

But as you stated, this is not a court of law and it is a sports collectors forum.

As far as someone accusing me of something with no proof, so what? Do you think their families care what I say? I wouldn't.

I understand some of your heroes have to remain unblemished in your eyes. Trust me, they don't need you to protect them. Their are no infallible men. We all are fallible. The sooner you see that the sooner you will see that nobody needs you to take up their cross and carry it for them. One day none of this will make any difference at all to any of us, just ask Mantle and Maris if you see them again.

I said I thought they were experimenting with steroids and said I based that on what I have observed and read. I said I have zero evidence. I didn't say I knew it and had proof.

I will say that you brought up some very good points and they should be considered. Some of them I knew but the reminder helps. I thank you for that as I can never read or learn enough of a subject I am interested in.

Always remember that none of us are as smart as we think we are. When you meet a man who claims to know everything, run away from him as fast as you can.

[Roady]

Re: Roger Maris and Hank Aaron HR champs?

Roady is the only one in the world who holds to this theory. It's funny I think. BUT in regards to the inferior pitching in 1961 because of the expansion season-that has been researched and the facts show that the pitching was no better or worse than any other expansion year. There has been plenty of expansion years after 1961 and HR records were not set again in those seasons. We got to quit finding ways to discount what Maris did in 1961. The best two reasons: Maris had an unbelievable year getting the ball up in air and over the fence during his second MVP Season. 2nd-he had Mantle batting behind him so he got pitched to. I just leave it at that.
HR CHAMP MARIS

If you think I am the only one in the world who thinks this way you don't read very much.
But don't let that stop you from telling tall tales while demanding proof from me.

[Roady]

Re: Roger Maris and Hank Aaron HR champs?

I stated my position and I am going to leave it there. No need for an argument over it.

I hope you guys are right and I am wrong. But I know some things you don't.

[cjclong]

Re: Roger Maris and Hank Aaron HR champs?

If you "know some things we don't" then tell us. I'm never impressed by the old I know things I can't tell. I suspect anything you "know" won't violate any national security secrets. And yes, I am a fan of the 61 Yankees but I don't idolize athletes. They are people and many of them are flawed human beings just as most people are.

[teddy406]

Re: Roger Maris and Hank Aaron HR champs?

So where's the evidence? I'm just hearing strange theories, that NO ONE else has ever put forth, but you. Where are the teammates and reporters and doctors from 1961 saying "We are pretty sure or know that both these guys were Roiding." Show me that instead of your area 51 theories and I'd listen. That only thing Maris was jacked up on was 3 packs of Cig's a day. Mantle alcohol.
61

[coxfan]

Re: Roger Maris and Hank Aaron HR champs?

I remember the 1961 season well. The main thing I recall about Maris is that he adopted an upper-cut swing to create more big flies, and he got zero intentional walks thanks to Mantle.

Ford Frick's ruling that a new season HR record in 162 games would need "some distinguishing mark" was absurd, and an inexcusable bias from a man who'd worked with Ruth. Frick's ruling created confusion in the record books for years, since it would logically apply to all season and career records, not just to HR's. But Frick, who was pandering to traditionalists who'd deified Ruth, didn't care about the logic.

Ironically the new 162-game schedule, which was so criticized by traditionalists at first, has survived through many changes over the last 53 years.

[teddy406]

Re: Roger Maris and Hank Aaron HR champs?

All true COXFAN. But one thing about the intentionial walks: Though not one intentionial walk in 1961-he was pitched around or carefully pitched to for almost 100 walks on the season. Most people don't realize this.
61

[cjclong]

Re: Roger Maris and Hank Aaron HR champs?

Maris got a number of walks in 61 but nobody was "pitching around him" to get to Mantle and with hitters like Berra, Howard and Skowron hitting behind Mantle.