Innocent until proven guilty

[staindsox]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

For the record on Clemens...what he is doing is unprecedented. After coming out of retirement last year at 43 (44 that August), he had a 2.30 ERA? He couldn't do that at 32 or 33 with Boston. Nobody in the history of the game has done that. He was mentioned in Canseco's book. Is it just a coincidence that he asked Jose what steroids to mix for different effects when it looked like his career was over and then went to Toronto the next year and began winning Cy Youngs again? Maybe, but let's not forget the Grimsley report. He was mentioned in two places, besides just comparing his body size and head size. Let's look at his shoes too. Apparently Bonds foot grew three sizes from age 35-40. I wonder if Roger did too. Nothing like a midlife growth spurt. I idolized Roger when I was a kid. I wanted to pitch like him. I hate saying it, but he's a dirty as the rest. It's not right to point the finger at Sammy or Mark and let Roger off the hook.

[Canseco44]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

Canseco may have ratted out his fellow players, but a lier is one thing he is not. For anyone who has picked up his book, he is telling the truth. Like he said, if it was a lie don't you think we would have seen some lawsuits by now.

Todd

[3arod13]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

Canseco may have ratted out his fellow players, but a lier is one thing he is not. For anyone who has picked up his book, he is telling the truth. Like he said, if it was a lie don't you think we would have seen some lawsuits by now.

Todd

There's no question, I believe everything Canseco says. He has no reason to make up anything now that he's out of baseball.

However, just like Brian Bosworth did, they both did it after the fact. I don't give props to anyone who does that. Canseco didn't do it for good reasons. He did it because he's bitter against MLB and wanted to get them back.

[staindsox]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

Absolutely! Jose mentioned Palmeiro, Pudge, and Juan Gon in Texas. He also mentioned McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, Giambi, Tejada. Those names have proven to be questionable. Jose said it first and has not been proven false once. He even said LaRussa knew about usage...Tony later acknowledged that this too was true. I'm not a Canseco fan, but everything he has said has been dead on so far.

[Canseco44]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

True, I don't give Jose props for doing that either. I am one of the biggest Canseco fans who has ever lived, but it did make me mad when he did that. I am still a huge fan, because I know when you are mad at someone sometimes you tend to do stuff that you later regret. Whether or not he regrets it I don't know, but I do think some good things have come from it.

Todd

[David]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

The problem for the players is that they don't talk about steroids, who uses and who doesn't. There is a self imposed code of silence. Due to this, the players, fans and sportswriters know there are many, many players who have used steroids than the players will ever talk about it. It is only natural for players and sportswriters to wonder which are the players who used and which didn't-- and it's the players and their union who are most at fault for this, not the fans and sportswriters.

[David]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

If the players know who used steroids but won't tell, and the fans know the players know who used steroids-- guess what? The fans are going to speculate and guess which players used steroids. They are going to try and fill in the missing information held back by the players. And guess what? The fans aren't going to believe every player who says he didn't use steroids, as the fans know that most players who use steroids don't admit it.

If steroids are bad for the game and are against the law, I never understood the source of pride in players covering for MLB steroid users. I collect and sell memorabilia and if I found out a fellow seller was forging or nefariously altering memorabilia (ala trimming baseball cards), you bet I would tell collectors what he is doing. I don't owe it to the forger to keep quit about what he is doing. My allegiance is to the collectors who don't wish to spend hard earned money on forgeries and trimmed cards. My allegiance is to the sellers who are honest.

[JasonM33]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

In my opinion you are comparing apples and oranges.

-Jason M

[David]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

If I keep quiet about a dealer who I know trims cards, who am I protecting? The dealer who trims cards.

If, through the 'code of silence,' players keep quiet about steroids users, who are the protecting? The players who use steroids. They certainly aren't protecting the fans or the game of baseball or the players who didn't use steroids.

Baseball could use a few more Jose Cansecos, not fewer.

[David]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

I should add that Ken Caminiti was black balled by many players. Do you know why? Because had the gall to talk publicly about his personal steroid use.

[JasonM33]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

I respect your opinion but I think we should just shrug our shoulders and accept reality. Professional athletes use performance enhancing drugs, and they deliver a better product on the field because of it.

-Jason

[3arod13]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

Professional athletes use performance enhancing drugs, and they deliver a better product on the field because of it.

-Jason

What? Are you serious about this remark? That's suppose to be a good thing? It's cheating! I care about a better product based on working out and natural ability.

[David]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

My view on baseball players and steroids is, if steroids didn't help baseball players wouldn't take them. And if baseball players didn't think taking steroids was wrong, they wouldn't deny taking them (Remember, players would deny taking steroids even when it wasn't against the rules and there was no punishment).

My last rhetorical question would be, would MLB be better if players used aluminum bats? That would definitely produce more home runs and runs.

[JasonM33]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

What? Are you serious about this remark? That's suppose to be a good thing? It's cheating! I care about a better product based on working out and natural ability.

Deadly serious. For me personally, I would rather that no one in pro sports ever took steroids. I feel this way because steroids have warped one of the most important parts of the game. Statistics and all-time records. With all of the steroid drama it's impossible to know who took them and when they were taking them. It screwed the whole thing up beyond repair.

However,

I do believe that steroid using players are better than their non juiced counterparts. They are able to do things that normal players can't do. Specifically I'm refering to the modern player that can combine home run power with the footspeed to steal bases at the same time. Also, older players are able to perform at a high level for much longer than they otherwise could. Look at Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens. So, yes I believe that they bring a better product to the field.

-Jason M

[David]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

But that is an argument for giving players aluminum bats. If you give Craig Biggio an aluminum bat, he'd triple his home runs, raise his batting average significantly and get to 3,000 hits as fast as lightening. However, I don't know of any serious baseball fan who would consider giving Craig Biggio an aluminum bat an improvement on the game, even though it would raise his level of play significantly from old man levels. Most, including Biggio himself, would consider the achievements from his new aluminum bat to be a joke.