Innocent until proven guilty

[David]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

If I keep quiet about a dealer who I know trims cards, who am I protecting? The dealer who trims cards.

If, through the 'code of silence,' players keep quiet about steroids users, who are the protecting? The players who use steroids. They certainly aren't protecting the fans or the game of baseball or the players who didn't use steroids.

Baseball could use a few more Jose Cansecos, not fewer.

[JasonM33]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

In my opinion you are comparing apples and oranges.

-Jason M

[David]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

If the players know who used steroids but won't tell, and the fans know the players know who used steroids-- guess what? The fans are going to speculate and guess which players used steroids. They are going to try and fill in the missing information held back by the players. And guess what? The fans aren't going to believe every player who says he didn't use steroids, as the fans know that most players who use steroids don't admit it.

If steroids are bad for the game and are against the law, I never understood the source of pride in players covering for MLB steroid users. I collect and sell memorabilia and if I found out a fellow seller was forging or nefariously altering memorabilia (ala trimming baseball cards), you bet I would tell collectors what he is doing. I don't owe it to the forger to keep quit about what he is doing. My allegiance is to the collectors who don't wish to spend hard earned money on forgeries and trimmed cards. My allegiance is to the sellers who are honest.

[David]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

The problem for the players is that they don't talk about steroids, who uses and who doesn't. There is a self imposed code of silence. Due to this, the players, fans and sportswriters know there are many, many players who have used steroids than the players will ever talk about it. It is only natural for players and sportswriters to wonder which are the players who used and which didn't-- and it's the players and their union who are most at fault for this, not the fans and sportswriters.

[Canseco44]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

True, I don't give Jose props for doing that either. I am one of the biggest Canseco fans who has ever lived, but it did make me mad when he did that. I am still a huge fan, because I know when you are mad at someone sometimes you tend to do stuff that you later regret. Whether or not he regrets it I don't know, but I do think some good things have come from it.

Todd

[staindsox]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

Absolutely! Jose mentioned Palmeiro, Pudge, and Juan Gon in Texas. He also mentioned McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, Giambi, Tejada. Those names have proven to be questionable. Jose said it first and has not been proven false once. He even said LaRussa knew about usage...Tony later acknowledged that this too was true. I'm not a Canseco fan, but everything he has said has been dead on so far.

[3arod13]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

Canseco may have ratted out his fellow players, but a lier is one thing he is not. For anyone who has picked up his book, he is telling the truth. Like he said, if it was a lie don't you think we would have seen some lawsuits by now.

Todd

There's no question, I believe everything Canseco says. He has no reason to make up anything now that he's out of baseball.

However, just like Brian Bosworth did, they both did it after the fact. I don't give props to anyone who does that. Canseco didn't do it for good reasons. He did it because he's bitter against MLB and wanted to get them back.

[Canseco44]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

Canseco may have ratted out his fellow players, but a lier is one thing he is not. For anyone who has picked up his book, he is telling the truth. Like he said, if it was a lie don't you think we would have seen some lawsuits by now.

Todd

[staindsox]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

For the record on Clemens...what he is doing is unprecedented. After coming out of retirement last year at 43 (44 that August), he had a 2.30 ERA? He couldn't do that at 32 or 33 with Boston. Nobody in the history of the game has done that. He was mentioned in Canseco's book. Is it just a coincidence that he asked Jose what steroids to mix for different effects when it looked like his career was over and then went to Toronto the next year and began winning Cy Youngs again? Maybe, but let's not forget the Grimsley report. He was mentioned in two places, besides just comparing his body size and head size. Let's look at his shoes too. Apparently Bonds foot grew three sizes from age 35-40. I wonder if Roger did too. Nothing like a midlife growth spurt. I idolized Roger when I was a kid. I wanted to pitch like him. I hate saying it, but he's a dirty as the rest. It's not right to point the finger at Sammy or Mark and let Roger off the hook.

[mwbosoxfan]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

Speaking of Roger Clemens....Does anyone collect Clemens game used hats? There has been much discussion about Bond's head size and shoe size increasing through his alleged PED usage. Photos would tend to support this. What about Clemens? As shown in early Sox photos, he is a mere stick compared to now. His head also looks significantly larger now. I've never heard any discussion about Roger's head size, so I was wondering if anyone might have different hats through the years.

[3arod13]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

As proven by the many different threads over the past year about this topic, we can all agree that we need to put the past behind and now be concerned about today and in the future.

This has been going on for a long time. We all agree that natural ability is what we want to see. Then, the numbers and performance mean so much more.

Myself, I would like to see the steriods issue put behind us and let's move on. I'm sure if we dig deeper and deeper into many other areas, we can easily find out more than we even thought of.

I love baseball. I just want to see these type things get better so we can talk about the positive things in baseball, vice whose cheating on their wifes, getting in touble in their off time, etc.

Let's pay ball!!

[cjclong]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

Many players today take better care of themselves and thus are able to play longer. Most player's careers used to be over in their mid 30's. They didn't work out in the off season and caroused even during the season. Mickey Mantle is one who said he wished he had taken care of himself when he was younger so he could have had a longer and better career. The question was asked "how can Clemons pitch like that at his age? "The assumption being he must take steroids. Of course Nolan Ryan was doing the same thing at close to the same age until he hurt his arm. One thing both Ryan and Clemons had in common was that they trained hard as well as having natural genetic advantages. And years ago people were asking how Warren Spahn could pile up the wins and innings "at his age."I never heard anyone accuse Spahn of using steroids or Ryan either. This business of saying some players took steroids so everyone must presumed quilty or "tainted" is as silly as saying some people comit murders so every person in this country must be prsumed to be guilty of murder or "tainted" by the number of murders we have. Do I know Clemons or anyone else didn't take steroids for a fact. No. But I also don't know for a fact that every adult I know hasn't murdered someone.

[Canseco44]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

I think people should also be aware that just because a player doesn't change into the size that Canseco did doesn't mean he isn't taking an enhancer of some kind. There are many different kinds of steroids including mass builders, toners, and some that can help with stamina. I heard Dick Butkus state that one of the largest group of users is teenage girls. He stated this on an episode of American Chopper. They use it to build definition and to lose weight. My point is, usually the only players we go after are the obvious ones who add 40 pounds of muscle over the off season. One person I that comes to mind is Clemens. How can a guy that old still pitch like that? Lets not just look at the body builder type like Canseco and Bonds. If I had to pick one person who was accused in Cansecos book that he was lying about it would have been Palmero. Now look at him. I think we should just watch a Steroid free sport like pro football.

Todd

[3arod13]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

However talented a player he may be, Pay-Rod is an extremely insecure, tone-deaf doofus with a taste for East German strippers...and he plays for the Yankee$. There is enough of his stuff out there, to make you believe that quite a bit of it is "questionable", yet it remains extremely expensive.
Collecting his stuff isn't even on my radar screen. It's bad enough to get burned on a Dale Sveum Diamondbacks jersey for $300. Getting burned on a Pay-Rod jersey for $3000, well, that's a kettle of fish I don't care to sample.

Mark
bigtime39@aol.com

Ouch! Although I do agree there is just way too much arod stuff out there, and much of it I wouldn't buy either, I am happy to say I have a solid Arod HR bat! Letter's from Arod, PSA, SCD, and Rawlings.

I've learn so much in this forum. Since being apart of this forum, I have learned just how much stuff arod does sign as "game used" when it wasn't. Sad for the hobby...sad for the collecor!

Great comments by all! Tony

[cjclong]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

The only thing I know about "ARod and the blonde" is that ARod's wife, who people took great joy in reporting was packing her bags to leave him, was actually going to meet him in Boston and there were pitures of them there together. The steroid question on this thread is a legitimate question for baseball and everyone will have different opinions. Why people would take delight in hoping a player's marrigage would break up is beyond me.