*AFFORDABLE* Phillies game used Jerseys and Hats

[hblakewolf]

Re: *AFFORDABLE* Phillies game used Jerseys and Hats

Living in the Philadelphia area during the 1980's, I don't recall any Phillies active player of that decade wearing #13 until Lance Parrish arrived in 1987. Prior to Parrish, for several years it was worn by their bullpen catcher (I believe his last name was King). Maybe someone on here can confirm this or I'll see if I can find some old Phillies yearbooks.

You're correct. His name is Hank King, and he was the Phillies batting practice pitcher before taking on the position of Advanced Scout.

Here's a photo of him wearing uniform #13 at Spring Training, 1984.



Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[ironmanfan]

Re: *AFFORDABLE* Phillies game used Jerseys and Hats

i've personally never understood the mind set that some collectors have that just because a player has simply signed a particular item, that he has then confirmed authenticity to such.

[skyliner59]

Re: *AFFORDABLE* Phillies game used Jerseys and Hats

"As the seller, the burden of proof is yours...so we'll all look forward to hearing what Mr. Wilson has to say about the jersey."

The letter has been sent. Let's see what Mr. Wilson has to say. If you look at some of the reference tools mentioned, they tell you in black and white that they are not error free. Baseball almanac actually has an email set up for individuals to respond to when errors or ommissions are detected. I know what all of the websites and books say. I also know, and I am sure many of you including Mr Wolf, that these items are not an exact science. Clubhouse guys, equipment managers, players, batboys, etc. all play a part in how equipment gets doctored, sent down to the minors, shared by teammates, worn in spring training, etc. To click on baseball almanac and pop back onto this site with "concrete evidence" that these were the only numbers he wore while on the Phillies is simply ignorant. Mr. Steinmetz states that the burden of proof is mine, but maybe those questioning an item should bear some of the burden as well (maybe do a little more reasearch other than popping up a website), before condeming an article. Granted these reference tools are considered bibles by some, but all should keep in mind that the keepers themselves admit to be prone to errors. All that said, odds are that this jersey may not have been worn by Mr. Wilson but let's see what he has to say first. I will keep the forum posted when I receive a response.

In regards to Ironmanfan, I never stated that the signature proves authenticity. I simply stated that I find it odd for any ballplayer to sign a game used jersey which was not his. If in fact he never wore #13, then obviously the jersey would not be his. I seen a player take a baseball card my 10 year old son asked him to sign, and turn the card upside down and sign the back because he said the photo on the card was another player.

In response to karamaxjoe, I see no tampering to any part of the jersey whatsoever. When held up in sunlight there are no open stitch holes, etc.

[kingjammy24]

Re: *AFFORDABLE* Phillies game used Jerseys and Hats

re: due diligence / burden of proof

it's true that baseball-almanac is not flawless. (although in my experience, it's pretty close). i'm guessing that it's possible that "now batting.." and "baseball by the numbers" might have errors as well. collectively however, the odds of all 3 sources all being incorrect about glenn wilson's numbers seems very, very low.

i also agree that due diligence ought to be performed by both the seller and anyone questioning/purchasing an item. it seems that howard and others have done a reasonable amount. i suppose it's technically possible to always do more but with the addition of the hank king photo, they've certainly done a reasonable amount.

that said, robert, as the seller of this jersey, what due diligence have you performed prior to selling this jersey in regards to verifying that wilson wore #13? i have to think that you're selling this jersey based on a little more than the remote chance that 3 major sources may have all made an error. under this train of thought, uniform numbers are almost completely irrelevant in ascertaining the legitimacy of a jersey because there's always an extremely remote possibility that a player wore a number that no source ever documented him wearing. to anyone who questions my #33 pujols shirt, i'll simply say "hey guys, we all know it's not an exact science. i don't have a single piece of evidence that he ever wore #33 but it doesn't matter because the burden is on you to prove he never wore it".
you could use that warped logic to justify every ridiculous item from a pair of roger clemens "my little pony" cleats to a mickey mantle #99 jersey.

robert, do you have a single shred of absolutely anything to even remotely suggest that wilson may have worn #13? howard and the rest have come up with 4 decent references. have you even 1 to support your claim that wilson may have worn #13? you deride the conclusiveness of howard's sources yet i haven't seen you offer a single one of yours.

i'm confused by how this jersey was bought and subsequently advertised. robert, prior to purchasing it, did you verify whether wilson ever wore #13? upon deciding to sell it, what due diligence do you do to verify whether wilson wore #13? the jersey didn't seem to come with any blatant disclaimers regarding the incorrect number. surely you didn't offer a jersey for sale that you hadn't checked out.

"I know what all of the websites and books say."

you know this yet somehow you still felt confident in offering the jersey without any mention that the number is likely incorrect.

"..odds are that this jersey may not have been worn by Mr. Wilson"

i find it disconcerting that you didn't make this statement prior to selling the jersey and are only admitting it now.

rudy.

[hblakewolf]

Re: *AFFORDABLE* Phillies game used Jerseys and Hats

Robert Playford (aka SKYLINER)-

I forwarded this link directly to Glenn Wilson, thus, he had all of the information presented here at his disposal.

The following response was sent to me from Glenn Wilson earlier this evening (Glenn's email address partially eliminated by me for privacy):


----- Original Message ----- From: <glenn@glenXXXXXXXXX.com>
To: "Howard Wolf" <hblakewolf@patmedia.net>
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: PHILLIES UNIFORM NUMBER



> > Howard
> No I never wore number 13 while playing for the phillies.
> Though I looked at the picture described and it does look like my
> signature on the nu. 1.So it would be my suggestion to buy or sell the
> jersey for 250 dollars then have a 2 put in place of the three.Then send
> the jersey to me along with 250 and I will also sign the new 2.If you all
> can get along with that.Life is to short to thought of as a liar cheat or
> theif.
> Work it out guys.
> Glenn Wilson

This confirms my initial post that Wilson wore #27 during his first season in 1984 with the Phillies, and then #12 the following seasons. Likewise, a quick two minute search on several baseball uniform number sites on the internet supports this evidence.

FYI

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[Dewey2007]

Re: *AFFORDABLE* Phillies game used Jerseys and Hats

Now that is impressive work on getting to the bottom of this Wilson jersey business!!

Can you e-mail James Worthy about these shoes I have of his, I need to ask him a question

[b.heagy]

Re: *AFFORDABLE* Phillies game used Jerseys and Hats

So what is it then? An issued jersey? Made up for Wilson in anticipation of his arrival to Philly but he was later issued another with a number he preferred?, Recycled/number change? Everything about the jersey seems to match up except the number. Interesting piece.....

[JD&TANMAN]

Re: *AFFORDABLE* Phillies game used Jerseys and Hats

Wow, I think I am as baffled by Wilson's response as I am item. Howard, thanks for the hard work.

[hblakewolf]

Re: *AFFORDABLE* Phillies game used Jerseys and Hats

A few collectors asked if it's possible that the shirt in questions was worn by Lance Parrish (who wore #13) when he first joined the Phillies. Parrish was signed as a free agent on March 15, 1987. Even if the Phillies wore their previous season jerseys in spring training 1987, they would have most likely worn 1986 jerseys. The shirt in question is tagged 1985. Likewise, Parrish wore size 46.

Others have asked if it's possible that this was used as the jersey given to Parrish when intoroduced to the media. Should someone locate a photo from the confrence, it may determine if he was shown with the #13 Rawlings button-down (as first used in 1987) or if the Phillies quickly made a jersey from previously worn jerseys. If that's the case, then the name on back should reflect PARRISH, not WILSON.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[skyliner59]

Re: *AFFORDABLE* Phillies game used Jerseys and Hats

So what is it then? An issued jersey? Made up for Wilson in anticipation of his arrival to Philly but he was later issued another with a number he preferred?, Recycled/number change? Everything about the jersey seems to match up except the number. Interesting piece.....

Time to put this issue to rest. After speaking with Mr. King this is how the story goes. Prior to playing for the Phillies, while with the Detroit Tigers, Glenn Wilson wore #12. Wilson was traded to the Phillies in March of 1984 at which time he was issued #27 because Phillies first baseman Len Matusek was already holding #12. In the spring of 1985 Wilson requested a lower number, Hank's #13 was assigned to him. On 4/1/1985 Len Matuszek was traded to the Blue Jays. At this time Wilson was now able to acquire his old number, 12, and return the #13 to Mr. King. Therefore this jersey, which shows no alterations of any kind, was issued to and worn by Mr. Wilson during spring training of 1985.

I hope this answers your questions Mr. Wolfe. Now after this explanation I assume you would like to purchase it.