2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

[G1X]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

Just my humble opinion, but I agree 100% with Patrick's last paragraph. From my view of the hobby as both a collector and dealer, I think that it is perhaps the truest thing anyone has ever written in this Forum about the subject.

I see it and hear it nearly every day, especially from the dealer side of the fence. I could tell many an amazing tale on the subject, but there is not enough time or space.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

[trsent]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

great post again Pat....I'm gonna dissagree with you that "we" created this mess...my opinion is that where there are dollar signs, scumbags follow....the crooks created the mess, so the authentication business evolved...Lampson has been discussed so many times here, and I'm not gonna beat a dead horse..but if you look at the whole hobby from an outside perspective, Lampson is a terrible cancer to this hobby as an authentcator.....when a guy authentiactes a ton of Elways and Favres that were only worn for one game, it shows that he has no business being in the authenticating business......HE NEEDS TO BE SHUT DOWN!!!!!!!

How do you "SHUT DOWN" a man? Sounds pretty harsh.

[lund6771]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

when I say shut down...I mean his authentication business...this would be a slap on the wrist...many would consider what he is doing fraud...there are so many "newbies" that have gotten into collecting and they solely rely on his letter...

sure we sit here and talk about doing our own homework...but why do we say this?...cuz we've all been burned and still see it continuosly happening every day on e-bay and auctions...most of us have on this site have been around the block, but how is the newbie protected?...by a guy who has authenticated handfulls of Elways and Favres that were only worn for one game?

[trsent]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

when I say shut down...I mean his authentication business...this would be a slap on the wrist...many would consider what he is doing fraud...there are so many "newbies" that have gotten into collecting and they solely rely on his letter...

sure we sit here and talk about doing our own homework...but why do we say this?...cuz we've all been burned and still see it continuously happening every day on e-bay and auctions...most of us have on this site have been around the block, but how is the newbie protected?...by a guy who has authenticated handfulls of Elways and Favres that were only worn for one game?

I understand, but the issue is no one has ever come on this forum and shown that Lou Lampson, the authenticator you said should be shut down, has intentionally committed fraud. I do not personally like his methods, I do not like the fact that letters are written and no contact information is listed to stand behind them and I do not like a lot of examples of his work, but no one has ever shown proof that he has intentionally authenticated an item as genuine to commit fraud.

I have spoke to his associates and friends over the years, and they feel he is an honest man who may work too quickly and make mistakes. It is not how I would run my business, not how other respected authenticators run their business, but it is how he runs his business.

[mvandor]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

I believe the correct legal term is "gross negligence".

[lund6771]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

I have spoke to his associates and friends over the years, and they feel he is an honest man who may work too quickly and make mistakes. It is not how I would run my business, not how other respected authenticators run their business, but it is how he runs his business.

If I was a new to collecting and saw how Lampson is glorified in ebay descriptions and all that Smithsonian mumbo jumbo...I'd be awefully impressed with his resume...

THen let's say I would want a Lebron James game used jersey and did a google search...Of course Vintage Authentics would probably pop up because it seems like they sell 400 of them a year...Sweet!!!! It comes with a Lampson letter!!!...So I bought it for $1,200.00!!!!...Seems like a great deal for such a Superstar!!!...(Isn't that about what the last 400 they've sold went for?)...Now I'm on Vintages list and their next auction comes around and heres 3 more...Next auction theres a few more...Hmmm, red flags start going up...start doing some more searching on the internet about Lampson and come up to this site...

OH SHIT!!!!!...I JUST GOT BURNED!!!!!!!

I don't think that this story is any sort of a stretch...how would you feel about Lampson?...Would you give a shit that he's a nice guy and that he works to quickly and makes mistakes?

Hell no!!!...he just cost me $1,200!!!!!

you've just learned gotten your first taste of the current state of the game used memorabilia market...where you have to do all the reasearch yourself and Lampson is worthless..so it was a $1,200.00 lesson that should have NEVER occurred in the first place

[lund6771]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

or in a nut-shell

would you care how nice Lampson is if you bought an Elway or Favre throwback and came across this thread?

[G1X]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

I think that most who have been in the sports memorabilia hobby for any length of time understand that there are problems with the hobby - just as there are in any other hobby and in life in general. I have been collecting game-used uniforms since 1974, and I can state that the evils in the hobby are really no different than it was back then other than it is a different set of characters and some of the methods have changed.

A few Forum members post endlessly in this Forum expressing a lot of passion on the ills in our hobby. If I may ask, what are any of you who express these concerns doing to rectify the situation? Posting in this Forum is fine, but as stated in my opening sentence, I would think that most of the folks in this Forum are aware of most of the hobby's problems.

The bottom line is this - whether it's this hobby or any other hobby - it's caveat emptor. It is the first and most important thing one should learn before embarking into any hobby. Some will argue the point endlessly, but it's a fact - period.

Shouting about all the bad guys will not really change a thing as there will always be other bad guys to take their place. It's been that way since the beginning of time. Trying to police a hobby is near impossible.

There is only one thing any collector can do, and that's the usual mantra that we have all said and heard a million time before - do your homework and become your own expert in the items you collect. Protect yourself with knowledge. It takes a lot of time and effort, and is not something that can be acquired overnight.

It is easy to blame ebay, lazy sellers, SCD, evil dealers, auction houses, authenticating services, any and all ripoff artists, etc., etc., etc. . . In my humble opinion, at the end of the day, there is no one to blame but ourselves when we don't take on the responsibility of becoming well-educated in what we collect.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

[Nathan]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

To point the finger solely at one side or the other is oversimplifying a complex issue (and no, I'm not accusing Mark or anyone else; his just happens to be the post above mine).

Here are the problems that we face on a daily basis:
1) Negligent authenticators
2) Uneducated collectors
3) Third parties (i.e. auction houses and a couple of dealers) that would rather protect their friends and wallet than do the right thing

This forum exists to aid in all three. We share information to help collectors become educated, we blow the whistle on items that are improperly deemed authentic, and we keep an eye and report on the third parties that behave in an unscrupulous manner.

In an ideal world, every person that's ever looked at buying a game jersey would be an educated member of our forum. But when you find an eBay auction that ends in 10 minutes for an iffy item at a great price, a lot of that goes out the window. It would be wonderful if everyone had the requisite knowledge already in their head, but it doesn't work that way. In this hobby, timing is a big part of being able to pick up a great item. I have missed out on numerous terrific items by seeing them five minutes too late, and at the same time have benefited by picking up a couple of items almost immediately after being posted for sale. Doing homework goes out the window in that scenario.

Here's the part about dealers/authenticators that fries me. In hockey (my primary collecting sport), we are fortunate to have Barry Meisel and Milt Byron. Both are longtime dealers, both are longtime authenticators, and both have lifetime money-back guarantees if they erroneously authenticate something that isn't good. Do baseball or football dealers offer the same thing? The simple fact is that hockey in the last 10 years has advanced into the modern era, while I look at baseball (especially) as being in the Stone Age.

Authenticators owe it to the hobby to be able to sit down and diligently research every item they see. Auction houses owe it to the hobby to oversee those authenticators and not pull the "we take their word" card out of their (not "hat", but something that sounds similar). And collectors owe it to the hobby to expand their base of knowledge so we can help ourselves, help each other, and keep a check on the unscrupulous.

And that's all I have to say about that.

[trsent]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

Looking for Duane Kuiper home run baseballs

I am just wondering - If a guy has one career home run, aren't you looking for a "baseball" and not the plural?

[EndzoneSports]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

I had a sinking feeling after my last post that my response was likely to (re)open any number of cans of worm. My apologies to all if for inadvertently initiated a hijacking of this thread’s original purpose. Now that the damage is done, I might as well clarify/expound on a few thoughts.

The “we” to which I referred is the hobby in total, not just at the collector end of the food chain. This “we” includes the hobbyist collectors, dealers/auction houses, and the 3rd-party service providers that we’ve (intentionally or otherwise) invited into our little fracas. As Mark H. pointed out the hobby is fraught with ills from all levels… From the uneducated and/or ill-informed collectors who would foolishly plunk down four digits worth of grocery funds on a LaBron jersey, blindly accepting the opinion of an authenticator, to the “professional” authenticator who is more interested in the quantity rather than the quality of the work to which he signs his name, to the seller who, motivated by profit (which all businesses must be), acts with near complete disregard as to the integrity of the items which they are peddling. Lund6771 is absolutely correct in his “scumbags-following-dollar-signs theory”, but guess what? Those “scumbags” are prevalent in all levels of the hobby. To arrogantly point the finger at any one single element as the embodiment of the anti-Christ lies somewhere between oversimplification and ignorance of reality.

Can we sweep out all of the crooks and shut down the authenticators? Absolutely; the solution is simple. Stop buying! As stated previously, whether it be an auction house or paid authenticator, these business have arisen in order to meet the demand for a need. That demand being the result of a huge surge of interest in sports memorabilia. If we as collectors no longer have a need for a particular service, it will cease to exist as the demand for that service diminishes. As crass as it may sound, all entities are in business to make money. When the cash flow dries up, and these businesses can no longer make payroll and pay the leasehold, they will go the way of the dodo. So what are we waiting for?!? The reality is that, this is not going to happen, at least not in the short term. But rest assured, this, like all things will pass. At some time in the future, our somewhat juvenile diversion of hoarding other people’s sweaty laundry will turn en mass to other endeavors. With this change in interests, the support structure will fold up tent behind it. But again, that is somewhere over the horizon.

In the reality of the present, there will continue to be some within the hobby who will exhibit less than exemplary behavior, just as there will be many in the hobby readily standing by to vehemently vilify such behaviors. As Mark pointed out, these same elements were in existence in the days long before the boom, and they will continue to be present long after the surge has subsided. Such is our nature.

As much as we want to disparage the auction houses for their offering of questionable items, they do indeed serve a useful purpose in the hobby—that of acting as a marketplace; bringing together memorabilia from a multitude of sellers across a wide geographic range and making them available to interested buyers. For all of the items questioned (some of them unfairly so), by and by, the vast majority of the items offered are legitimate, unquestioned and sell to satisfied buyers.

The same goes for the authenticators. With few exceptions (no names to be mentioned), I seriously doubt that anyone who puts up a shingle as a paid authenticator would intentionally go out with the intent of committing fraud. While several examples of authentication provided by (insert name of any authenticator) can be shown to have been careless, sloppy, or just plain worthless, I seriously doubt that the intent was there to have these acts considered as fraudulent. For all of their well-publicized gaffes, these folks utilize what can generally be considered a vast wealth of experience and knowledge to do a thankless job for relatively little compensation. And while we can continue to bash them all we want, this is another case of we got what we asked for. At the onset of the hobby’s explosion, buyers collectively lambasted the auction houses/dealers for providing their own LOAs—an egregious conflict of interest we said (never mind the fact that many of the old timers had been doing this for years/decades prior to said swell in interest). From our outcry for unbiased opinions came the professional authenticator—paid by the auction houses, albeit via revenues derived from seller/buyer commissions (and we dare be to be insulted by the rise in these fees). We cry foul when any of these authentications don’t meet our standards, and scream at the top of our lungs about their not providing contact information or being accountable for their misdeeds, but keep in mind the nature or their relationship. Having been hired by the seller/auction house, these authenticators act in an agency relationship for the sellers. As such, they are really accountable only to these sellers and owe us—the lowly collector—very little if anything at all. While an ugly prospect, such is an undeniable truth. Want to correct this? Stop buying or bidding on anything with a 3rd-party authentication. When we collectively send a strong enough message that we do not want nor are willing to pay for this service, the sellers will cease to offer it and the authenticators will move on to pursue other opportunities.

As to collectors, we must collectively look into the mirror and ‘fes up to our own faults as well. Any “novice” collector who goes out and plunks down $1,200 for a jersey without knowing his ash from his elbow pad, probably deserves to get burned… It’s called natural selection, and in the long-run it’s probably better for the hobby in general. The same goes for the dupe who finds that bargain of a deal on that Mecca of high-quality memorabilia called eBay and throws all caution to the wind to land that too-good-to-be-true deal. Chances are, (if he’s lucky) he got exactly what he paid for, and deserved it.

Folks lets face it, this is a HOBBY. The federal government is not going to step in and provide oversight and regulation of our little corner of chaos. Unless there is a collective movement to transform the infrastructure of our marketplace, little is likely to change in short order. As Mark H. stated, what were going through now is not much different than what was transpiring 30+ years ago; only (some) the names and faces have changed.

(P.S. Apologies up front for any and all unchecked cynicism)

Best regards,

[aeneas01]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

"A few Forum members post endlessly in this Forum expressing a lot of passion on the ills in our hobby. If I may ask, what are any of you who express these concerns doing to rectify the situation? Posting in this Forum is fine, but as stated in my opening sentence, I would think that most of the folks in this Forum are aware of most of the hobby's problems."

forum members that "post endlessly... on the ills in our hobby" and those that continue to express their concerns have done a great deal to rectify the situation imo - such members have created an increasingly loud voice that reaches more and more ears every day. and imo the impact of this collective voice has been quite evident, quite real. further, while it's true that most forum members may be well aware of the problems within the hobby, there are many, many new visitors to the forum each day that are not; and i for one learn something new every time i visit.

"It is easy to blame ebay, lazy sellers, SCD, evil dealers, auction houses, authenticating services, any and all ripoff artists, etc., etc., etc. . . In my humble opinion, at the end of the day, there is no one to blame but ourselves when we don't take on the responsibility of becoming well-educated in what we collect."

Hunt Auctions:
Hunt Auction prides itself as a company to be among the finest vintage sports memorabilia auctions in the country. We exercise great care in our selection of consignment and purchase materials to ensure the highest quality merchandise is made available to our bidders.

Heritage Auctions:
Our knowledgeable staff of over 100 experts and 300 additional service-oriented professionals, and our suite of services, help our customers develop the best collections possible.

American Memoarabilia:
American Memorabilia strives to lead the memorabilia industry by creating memories for generations, while providing the highest quality authentic memorabilia, client satisfaction, industry integrity & trust while sharing a portion of our success back to the community.

Grey Flannel Auctions:
You can rest assured that each and every lot in this auction is genuine and authentic in all respects. Our commitment to authentication for over a decade has earned us the reputation as "The Standard of the Industry."

Mastro Auctions:
Leading Industry Experts With the foremost experts in the hobby, Mastro Auctions clients benefit from hundreds of years of collective experience. Nowhere is there more collectibles knowledge under one roof - see the expert biographies for details.

to suggest that collectors have no one to blame but themselves if the item they receive from a high profile auction house or experienced dealer proves not to be authentic strikes me as stunningly ridiculous and, quite honestly, is very maddening. as can be seen above, auction houses clearly and in no uncertain terms present themselves as having the required expertise to determine whether or not an item is indeed authentic - an expertise for which the buyer is charged a handsome premium. to imply that these type of auction houses should be let off the hook because a bidder does not possess the esoteric information found at game used universe and, by extension, deserve what they get because the required "homework" was not done is utterly outrageous imho.

should a bidder be required to know that a herschel walker game used georgia helmet listed at auction is bunk if the six digit date code stamped into the interior of the helmet is followed by a letter? a bidder has no business bidding on such an item if not equipped with this sort of esoteric info? is a bidder a stooge because he/she believes that a reputable auction house knows to check this sort of info, because the auction house states: "our knowledgeable staff of over 100 experts and 300 additional service-oriented professionals, and our suite of services, help our customers develop the best collections possible."?

"As I’ve previously stated both on this forum and elsewhere, the hobby itself has created this mess, and like it or not, we’re now forced to live with the monster we’ve created, warts and all. For a multitude of reasons, collectively we (the hobby in general) have demanded 3rd-party authentication; individuals and/or business have risen to the demand and we’ve been given what we’ve asked for (albeit with a less than perfect system, and aside from minor tweaking, with few options for anything better); and now we expend much of our time thrashing the system for its flaws. Chalk it up to human nature to want to gripe and moan about all that’s wrong in the world… I know I do. : )"

i don't believe that the hobby is a mess and i certainly don't believe that collectors have played a part in creating a mess. nor do i believe that there is anything complex or complicated about the state of the hobby. imho it's really as simple as this - the hobby is comprised of honest folks and, unfortunately, dishonest honest folks. navigating between the two is the challenge.

further, i don't believe that the hobby has ever demanded third-party authentication nor do i believe authenticators are a product of auction houses attempting to limit their liability - i believe that auction houses simply and correctly determined that authenticators could increase the value/price of their lots and, through the years, they have become the norm. frankly, it seems, any piece of paper will suffice these days.

again, imho there is really nothing complicated about the hobby nor do i feel the hobby is a mess - like anything else where money is involved you will find crooks. but because of places like this, such crooks will be exposed and so will questionable business practices.

and posting concerns here works - every major auction house reads this site and many, many, many collectors come here for info even if they don't register and become active members. i know, i get emails all of the time from helmet collectors that were pointed to the forum, found my email address and have contacted me.

as far as i'm concerned publicly airing out shenanigans within this hobby does not constitute "whining" nor does it hurt the hobby. it makes the hobby better, safer and, most importantly, it works.

[mvandor]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

Folks lets face it, this is a HOBBY. The federal government is not going to step in and provide oversight and regulation of our little corner of chaos.

Ah, completely wrong, with all due respect. To a consumer, it is a hobby, to those making a living at it, it is a career, a job, a profession. In fact, collectively, it is an industry subject to the same scrutiny and standards all industries should be held to. It is, in fact, big business when you look at the millions of dollars passing through.

[EndzoneSports]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

Ah, completely wrong, with all due respect. To a consumer, it is a hobby, to those making a living at it, it is a career, a job, a profession. In fact, collectively, it is an industry subject to the same scrutiny and standards all industries should be held to. It is, in fact, big business when you look at the millions of dollars passing through.

No disrespect taken. We all are likely to have differing opinions; these differences only embellish the fabric of our endeavor.

A big business indeed and certainly no disagreement there. My prior post noted that, the folks who are doing this professionally are out to make money; by definition that's what being in business is about. With this, however, also comes the responsibility to conduct business in an ethical manner, and yes, there will be some who push the limits on this front.

My point of emphasizing the "hobby" aspect is that of reminding us all that, from a collector's standpoint, this is supposed to be something that we have fun doing. So many take this hobby (and themselves) way too seriously. If this is not something that one finds enjoyable, maybe they should consider stamp collection or taking up cross-stitch. While we do have our share of crooks and scoundrel amongt us, this will remain, to a greater or lesser degree, until the cows come home. In the mean time, we must all try to continue educating ourselves, aid where possible in educating others, and most of all have fun!

Best regards,

[aeneas01]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

Ah, completely wrong, with all due respect. To a consumer, it is a hobby, to those making a living at it, it is a career, a job, a profession. In fact, collectively, it is an industry subject to the same scrutiny and standards all industries should be held to. It is, in fact, big business when you look at the millions of dollars passing through.

you are precisely right mvandor - further, auction houses are indeed heavily regulated and do not enjoy the same "safe harbor" protection as ebay. but in order for regulations to be enforced, consumers must lodge complaints, i.e. regulating bodies need to be made aware of problems (usually again and again). regulating bodies, whether state or federal, generally do not go after businesses randomly - they generally go after businesses in response to consumer complaints. also, the media (local & national) is a good avenue for lodging complaints, for sharing your story - when media outlets are contacted enough times with like stories an investigative report can follow.

and for those that appreciate a little bit of irony with their beer....

Heritage Auction house, based in Dallas, says the negative publicity of auctioning questionable Hollywood memorabilia has damaged its multi-million dollar reputation. It is now suing the company that provided the items for sale. Heritage is the third largest auction house in the world. It sold more than 20 items that it advertised as having once belonged to Hollywood stars. Those pieces were provided by a company called LA Prop. Heritage says LA Prop knowingly made false representations about the authenticity of the items...

http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/wfaa080214_lj_heritage.c0999080.html