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Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?
Agreed...there obviously are a lot of bad Paytons out there...seems like there's one in every auction...but can they ALL be no good?...is a real Payton that exremely scarce as, say like, Barry Sanders?...there's a ton of bad Sanders jerseys out there, I'd say that 99% bad is fair...in fact, the only 2 that I know are 100% real is Rogers and the one AMI just sold
3Swtns, how many do you know of out there that you know are 100%...I agree that back then there were only a couple of homes and roads worn each year...based on the GSH on the sleeves, and the style of Wilson tag, you can narrow down time periods of probablity...most Paytons out there have the GSH which was only worn 4 years I think...so based on the amount of jerseys that players were given back then, for this 4 year stretch Payton could have worn around 10 homes and 10 roads for the 4 years combined!!!!...I'm sure some probably got discarded or recycled...just in Erics thread we saw more Paytons being sold that ever could have possibley be worn...Hall of Fame has some I'm sure, familiy, maybe some friends...
so I guess a real Payton from this era is as scarce as a real Barry Sanders...a 100% real one should come around only once every 5-10 years...so mathematicall there is no possible way that even a couple of the ones listed in all the auctions above are real, no matter if he did or didn't wear only a 42Comment
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Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?
I can't begin to explain all the wrong sized so-called Payton "gamers" that have changed hands in recent years other than the fact that a guy could very possibly make quite a chunk of change if he could come up with a reasonable facsimile of one. This has been proven time and time again. All I can offer is what I know and what I've been told by more than one very reputable source.
I certainly can't control what people choose to do with their money either but I do know, without a doubt, that any Payton game used jersey I purchase in the future will have to show plenty of visible game use and it will have to be a size 42.Comment
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Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?
swnts...have u ever seen one that has made u 100% certain that it was real?...how many 100% real ones exist, that you know of?
I am honestly somewhat amazed that the last one in AMI's auction is being questioned....from what I have heard, Bob Case has had awesome football coonections over the years and built a nice collection...has to be one of the best collections out thereComment
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Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?
Pete,
I just got off the phone with the Pro Football Hallof Fame and they confirmed to me that the jersey that Payton gave them directly after he broke Jim Brown's record is a size........44, so i guess it is a fake. But you will spin this info. another direction about the mathematics of the numbers of jerseys which is all conjecture on your part because you have no idea how many jersey were worn by Payton those years. blah,blah,blahComment
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Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?
Great info Dave!!!!..that was a great idea thinking to call the Hall...I wish more authenticators would come up with ideas like that
you've been around a while, what are your thoughts about how many jerseys a year players wore in this era...realism is still telling me that there is no way even 1/2 of the jerseys that Eric posted could be real...
I'm not singleing out any auction house here, just the total numbers of jerseys that have sold within the last few years is staggering
Again, I trueyl was suprised that there were potential issues brought up with Case's jersey...again from what I've heard he's put together an awesome football collection
Im not spinning anything here and think that you had a great idea calling the Hal of Fame, but reality is telling me that there is no way that they can ALL be real
can we agree on someting for once?....
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Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?
Well, then I guess we have a quandry then don't we?
Here's photo of Payton's jersey in the Hall:
Taken by one of our forum members, it's hard to tell what the size is. Assuming it's a size 44, why do you suppose Payton would switch from a 42 to a 44 in 1984 ,(which according to the plaque is when he wore this jersey), and back to a 42 in 1985, (which according to Dennis Grapenthin, vice president of Wilson Sporting Goods, is absolutely the size he wore during the Super Bowl season)? In fact, when Wilson reissued a limited run of Payton jerseys in 1993 and 2000, they were reissued in only one available size; the size Payton wore.......size 42.
Believe who you want, but I'm sticking with size 42. I've had too many good and reputable people tell me the same exact thing to deny it. Is it possible that all these people are wrong? Sure, anything's possible. But, speaking for myself, my money will only be spent on a size 42 Walter Payton jersey.Comment
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Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?
Now your asking for the impossible...Seriously, I am not that naive to believe that all of them are real. I will say that I did like Bob case's.
DaveComment
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Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?
around and around we go again...
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Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?
Dontcha' just love auction descriptions that waste your time with a lot of useless and irrelevant information that has almost nothing to do with the item up for sale?
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Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?
Not a new one, but a recycle of one sold previously. This is that same jersey that last sold via Vintage Authentics in Apr '07.
While the appearance of the white "road" jerseys seem to be somewhat more prolific (7 different known at present count), there are also a number of the orange "home" jerseys which have made the rounds though the auction/authentication circuit (3 different that we are aware of). A number of these have also been offered/sold multiple times, such as the one currently available from American Memorabilia (see http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/A...ction_ID=44698), which is now up for a third go-around.
While I've made several posts on this jersey style previously in this thread, I thought that we might be better served if I compiled all the data into a single resource. As such, I have created a single document, bringing together auction descriptions and/or authentication text, graphics and other relevant data. Will will post a link to this at our web site (at www.EndzoneSportsCharities.org) at our next site update, but for now, you can download this document directly from the following link:If anyone has any additional relevant information to share, please pass it along at I will update this document as appropriate.
Best regards,
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Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?
Pat...that is great database composition
don't these authenticators have one?...how can dealers sell these over and over again?
either they have no morals or they are complete idiots and shouldn't be running a business anywas...I'll vote for #1
thing is you keep seeing the same people sell the same trash overr and over againComment
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Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?
When we initially addressed this issue back in 2001, Grey Flannel had, by that time, authenticated 3 different of the white “road” jerseys—1 ea. in size 44, 46 and 48 (See jersey #s 1, 2 & 3). More recent information indicates that there were at least four—a second in size ‘46’ also carries a GF letter “M.S. 603C” dated from 1996 (see jersey #7). Upon being made aware of this, Andy I. had stated that, due to the information we’d provided, they would no longer consider authenticating any jerseys of this style. To their word, and to the best of my knowledge, they have not authenticated one since, the last being Jersey #3 , offered in May of ’01.
Contacted in 2005 regarding the 3rd sale of similarly-styled jerseys (see Jersey #s 4, 5 & 6 offered in 2002, 2004 and 2005, respectively), the folks at American Memorabilia (AMI) seemed a bit less concerned regarding the “coincidence” and Victor M’s polite, but brief response was (paraphrased), “We can only go by the opinion of our authenticator”.
From a business stand-point, I can understand this sentiment (without agreeing with it) as one of the reasons that the people from the business side hire 3rd-party authenticators is to insulate themselves from liability regarding authenticity concerns. From a practical standpoint, however, the auction houses are still free to offer or choose not to offer anything that that desire, irrespective of 3rd-party opinions, be they supportive or otherwise. As an example, AMI’s own policies state that, “American Memorabilia reserves the right to refuse any item that comes from any authentication company. American Memorabilia will have the final say if an item will go into auction.”
Without knocking the business practices of either the sellers (ie auction houses) or authenticators, I can only offer a personal opinion as to my position. As someone who has performed paid authentication, I can state that I keep detailed records of each and every examination that I perform. Such records act as both a record of the jerseys for which I’ve offered opinions as well as a reference for comparison to any similarly-styled jerseys which may be presented subsequently. If the occasion were to arise where I was presented with a unique 1-game style jersey, I would perform due diligence to come to an opinion regarding the authenticity of the item in question. Presuming I concluded that, in my professional opinion, this jersey was authentic, if, at some later date, I were presented with a similarly-styled, albeit obviously different jersey, the positive opinion rendered on the first jersey examined, whether right or wrong, would prevent me from offering a similar supportive opinion on the second. In my judgment, this could be the only correct course of action, both from the standpoints of ethics and common sense. While I’ve never acted in the capacity of a professional dealer, I think that the same standard of ethics and common sense would apply, were I in this position.
Stepping back and taking a broader view, I must also offer a (limited) defense of the practices of the authenticators/sellers. At some point, both Grey Flannel and Lou Lampson were presented with one of these jerseys for the first time; at that point, having no prior history to draw from, one must presume that these were simply compared to a “reasonable standard” in order to draw their opinion. When presented with a second (presuming that records were retained of the first) a decision was required that would compel them to either 1) use the first as a standard for comparison; or 2) disregard the first and compare the second to the same “reasonable standard” used to judge the first. In practice, it would appear that both Grey Flannel and Lou Lampson have taken the second approach. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this approach in situations where it would be possible/plausible and even, in some case, likely that multiple similarly-styled jerseys would have been worn by a given player. Such is the case with Elway’s Russell Athletic jerseys from the mid- to late-1980s. These were somewhat of a generic commodity with one seasons’ jerseys being nearly indiscernible from the next; over a 5-year period, one could argue that there are likely a dozen or more legitimate gamers in existence. In my opinion, however, this approach should not be applied in the case of more unique styles.
As to the sellers… As previously mentioned, Grey Flannel, to the best of our knowledge, has neither authenticated nor sold a jersey of this style since 2001. While one could argue that, by that time, the damage was done and that they should have had internal controls in place to act as a check; thus, at least causing pause before 2nd, 3rd and 4th successive authentications, it would appear that at least they’ve suspended this practice once made aware of it. For this I commend them. Also as previously mentioned, I understand, but respectfully do not agree with, the stance of sellers such as American Memorabilia, who sidestep responsibility for the authenticity of the items that they offer, by placing the brunt of liability on their paid authenticators. There are several faults with this policy, most of which have been covered here and elsewhere ad nauseaum. My primary issue with such a policy is that, it unfairly insulates the seller from liability, passing this instead to the authenticator, who is simultaneously insulated in the fact that, said authentications are essential nothing more than their professional opinions. In the case of selling items of more or less questionable authenticity, neither the seller nor the authenticator would be held accountable.
As I’ve previously stated both on this forum and elsewhere, the hobby itself has created this mess, and like it or not, we’re now forced to live with the monster we’ve created, warts and all. For a multitude of reasons, collectively we (the hobby in general) have demanded 3rd-party authentication; individuals and/or business have risen to the demand and we’ve been given what we’ve asked for (albeit with a less than perfect system, and aside from minor tweaking, with few options for anything better); and now we expend much of our time thrashing the system for its flaws. Chalk it up to human nature to want to gripe and moan about all that’s wrong in the world… I know I do. : )
Best regards,Comment
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Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?
great post again Pat....I'm gonna dissagree with you that "we" created this mess...my opinion is that where there are dollar signs, scumbags follow....the crooks created the mess, so the authentication business evolved...Lampson has been discussed so many times here, and I'm not gonna beat a dead horse..but if you look at the whole hobby from an outside perspective, Lampson is a terrible cancer to this hobby as an authentcator.....when a guy authentiactes a ton of Elways and Favres that were only worn for one game, it shows that he has no business being in the authenticating business......HE NEEDS TO BE SHUT DOWN!!!!!!!
I' not sure if there ever was a time line for game used colecting, but here is my perspective...
the game used hobby seemed like it started to explode in the mid to later 80's....and with that the value of the "real stuff" sky rocketed
bring in the scumbags who saw $$$$ and here we go...first it was good replicas being sold as real...then it went to another level...faking wear
one of the reasons I've always loved football jerseys is the wear, but of course the art of creating fakes went to another level in the early 90's with fake tears, field paint, and repair marks
1992 was detrimental to the hobby when Champion was selling pretty much the exact stuff that was worn on the court and on the field...
ever since then it has been so hard to tell what is legit and what isn't for all sports
I think it's gong to take some major intervention so that the collector has some security again...dealers like AMI will continue to make the same comments about the authenticator, even when there is blatent evidence such as a one game style...who's gonna stop them?
I think there needs to be an overall hobby sweep and get a lot of these crooks out of here so that collecting can be fun again...it would be great to buy items from people who actually care about what they are selling...isn't that why we all started collecting to begin with?Comment
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