2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

[lund6771]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

Eric...Bob Case was the consignor of the Payton jersey...I heard that from different sources who don't know each other...he was also self promoting his items before the auction started

[34swtns]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

Regarding the Payton AMI jersey:

I've said it a hundred times already......Walter Payton only ever wore a size 42. From 1975 to 1988. First game to last game.....size 42.
This is fact, straight from the mouths of 2 former Bears equipment staffers and confirmed by a very respected Bears vintage gamer collector.
People who have bought or sold size 44's and 46's can get pissy and defensive all you want but it doesn't change the fact that if it's not a 42.....
IT'S A FAKE. Period.

I stopped alerting buyers/sellers, auction houses to this fact a long time ago. I've seen dozens of Payton "gamers" bought and sold that were nothing more than retail authentics doctored to look like gamers. Keep in mind, the Bears authentics of the 80's were EXACTLY like the gamers in every way. And Payton was the most popular Bear during this period so there are literally thousands of potential "gamers" floating around out there. But nobody wants to hear it. People refuse to believe that they've been had, and that's understandable. But it doesn't change the facts.

[Eric]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

What's your opinion on these? Specifically what about jerseys tagged 42 that measure to 44?

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=41053

High Bid:$8,346
Auction Closed: 02/07/2008
From 100 percent authentic




1985-86 Walter Payton Game-Used Bears Jersey (w/Multiple Team Repairs)

41053

2/7/2008
$8,346

The collector-preferred style of Walter Payton gamer is an early-career, pre-“GSH” sleeve designator. That is, of course, unless it's an ’84-86 GSH version sourced directly from Payton himself. In the late summer of ’86, one of the star's acquaintances waited three hours for Walter to emerge from the Lake Forest locker room. There, from a pillow case type satchel Payton produced this home jersey.
All of the required specs are evident: diagonal shoulder seams; two-color, uniquely fonted numerals and NOB, "GSH" designator, straight-stitch affixed nameplate, and a Wilson size “44” label affixed in black straight stitch. What separates this gem from others is the delicious wear of the label and affixing thread, the smattering of repairs, the upper torso surface wear, numerous disengaged seam threads and the surface wear/fading of the numerals and NOB.
No, it is not destroyed, but the wear is consistent and proven in all respects. Score it a “10” on features and a “10” for ‘80s perseverance and provenance.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
From 100 percent authentic




1984-86 Walter Payton Game-Worn Bears Jersey w/Team Repairs

27122

4/7/2006
$4,484

Walter Payton didn't dart and dash his way past the incomparable Jim Brown to set the all-time rushing record. No, Sweetness ran through the opposition and dished out just as much as he received. If Payton was near a sideline, he looked to unload on somebody rather than scamper out of bounds. He eventually overtook Brown and is still regarded by many as the best running back to ever take the field. This [size] "42" road jersey was worn by Payton in the mid '80s, when he was chasing Brown and winning the majority of his games. The jersey itself physically measures to a 44, which was the usual size worn by Payton. Great use is shown on the white shirt with two team instituted repairs. The first is located on the right sleeve, while the second is found near the verso "3." A number of hit marks appear on the right side "3" and on the front numerals. All of the identifiers are screened on in heavy plasticized font. What appears to be washed out blood is located on the verso "4"."PAYTON" is screened on to the nameplate. Overall, great use is shown on the jersey. The two repairs and multitude of hits marks equal a winner of a jersey. According to jersey authenticator Lou Lampson, "The jersey shows game wear, consistent for a back like Payton, who averaged 20-30 "touches" per game and was considered an active blocker when he didn't have the ball. There is evidence of turf burns and dings in the arm and shoulder areas as well as team repairs."
-----------------------------------------------------------------




Walter Payton Mid-80’s Game-Worn Bears Jersey

24537

12/9/2005
$3,062

Walter Payton battered and bashed his way to the record books and into the hearts of millions with his relentless style. Nobody exemplified the blue-collar city of Chicago like Sweetness did. It didn't matter if the Bears were trailing by 20 points, Payton always gave the game everything he had and left it all on the field. This midnight navy mesh jersey shows tremendous use with deep hit marks in the shoulder area from constant poundings. The [size] "42" shirt has Wilson styled diagonal shoulder seams with the rational sleeve striping and GSH mourning initials screened onto the left sleeve. All of the identifiers, including the NOB, are screened on in unique two-color orange and white. "PAYTON" has been screened onto a nameplate and then applied to the jersey. Heavy scuffing also appears on the verso "A" and two other deep hit marks have made their way onto the nameplate. While the jersey measures to a [size] "44," the Wilson tagging in the tail reads "42." The alpha numeric identifiers have light screening mil depth unlike most exemplars which feature thick mil depth. The jersey shows great wear with two minor team-instituted repairs appear on the shoulder and near the nameplate.
-----------------------------------------------------------------



Mid-1980's Walter Payton Game-Worn, Signed Jersey

14696

3/24/2005
$5,509

Besides Michael Jordan, there has been no man who has meant more to the city of Chicago. Walter Payton was a superior being on the football field, but most importantly, he was a quality person. Offered is an absolutely masterful game-used Chicago Bears home jersey worn in the mid-80's by the man with a God-given ability that got the most out of it at every possible chance. This Wilson (size) "44" shirt, exhibiting light but evident wear, has been signed by Walter and inscribed to "Matt," with "Sweetness" in blue ink. All screened-on identifiers, in addition to "GSH" on the sleeve stripe screening, completes this Hall of Fame piece.
-----------------------------------------------------------------



Mid 80's Walter Payton Game Used Jersey, Signed.

13263

12/9/2004
$8,066

Home midnight navy mesh jersey from 84-87 era with GSH inscription screened onto left sleeve stripe pattern. The tail label (Wilson 44) is the plastic variety, not optimal but used by the club on gamers none the less. All identifiers screened on as apropo. Autographed on back numeral. Underarm and rear neckline pulling with two team repairs. The jersey was stained and has glue remnants along shoulders, seams, and sleeves. It's barely noticeable from a short viewing distance but noticeable to the touch.



-----------------------------------------------------------------
1984-86 Walter Payton Bears Game Worn Jersey.

6208

6/17/2004
$3,763

A Championship-era representation from one of the greatest running backs in the history of the N.F.L. Jersey expert Lou Lampson's highly detailed letter of authenticity explains that all aspects of this rare white road style are correct, from the diagonal front seams extending from the collar to the shoulder seams, to the way the memorial "GSH" is screened on the left sleeve. Payton's name is screened across the shoulders, and his immortal number "34" is screened on chest, back and sleeves. Wear is tremendous, with evidence of various turf burns and dings, and scattered team repairs. "Wilson [size] 42" tagging in tail, though the jersey physically measures to a 44, which was the usual style worn by Payton. A Hall of Fame quality shirt.

[Eric]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

Here's a size 46
sold at heritage for Sold for: $4,182.50
Authenticated by Lou Lampson
http://sports.ha.com/common/view_ite...o=20010&src=pr#
Circa 1986-87 Walter Payton Game Worn Jersey.</I> Owned and operated by the inimitable Sweetness during the closing seasons of his Hall of Fame career, this navy mesh Bears gamer rates among the most desirable gamers of the last quarter century. Unmistakable at first glance, the orange and white number "34" and George Halas memorial monogram transport us back to the days of "The Super Bowl Shuffle" when Chicago was the capital of the football world. Rear nameplate, noted as ever so slightly darker than the rest of the jersey, features "Payton" screened in proper white and orange paint. Wear is light, though authenticator Bushing notes "numerous properly placed hit marks on jersey." Tail tagging reads "Wilson [size] 46," not uncommon for Payton when needing extra room inside his jersey for cold weather games. A blue sharpie signature on verso shows some hazing, but provides Payton's own seal of approval. Final grade is A6. LOA from Dave Bushing. LOA from Lou Lampson. LOA from PSA/DNA (autograph). LOA from James Spence Authentication (autograph).</B>

Here's a size 44 which sold at Heritage for $5078.75

http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=707&Lot_No=19914&src=pr

Mid-1980's Walter Payton Game Worn Jersey.</I> When it comes to 1980's football jerseys, it doesn't get much sweeter than Sweetness, who entered the National Football League as the Chicago Bears' first round draft pick in 1975 and left it as the all-time leader in rushing and combined net yards. The jersey that most of us picture in our minds when we think of this sadly departed superstar is the style we present here, the white mesh gamer sported by this rushing legend during the era of "The Super Bowl Shuffle." The number "34" on front, back and sleeves and "Payton" on rear nameplate are screened-on white with orange trim, and the font is unique and correct for a Bears game jersey of the mid 1980's. The "GSH" screened-on designator, which is superimposed on the middle left sleeve stripe, is correct in font size and shape and helps date the jersey to the 1984-86 Bears Championship era, the latter portion of Payton's illustrious career. There are no alterations of any kind to the jersey. Left front tail holds a proper "Wilson [size] 44" label. Buttoned crotch piece and elasticized side panels are in place. Fine wear is evident, with a scattering of small team repairs and a good assortment of nicks and dings on the shoulders. A Hall of Fame caliber shirt, just like the man who wore it. LOA from Lou Lampson.</B>

Here is a size 44 which sold at Heritage for $3346

http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=705&Lot_No=19437&src=pr

1984-86 Walter Payton Game Worn Jersey.</I> Direct from the "Super Bowl Shuffle" era comes this midnight navy mesh home gamer worn by Sweetness during his most productive years at Soldier Field. The style is Payton's most recognizable, with white and orange screenprinting announcing his immortal number "34" on chest, back and sleeves, and "Payton" screened in similar fashion across rear nameplate. Sleeve striping includes the memorial to George Halas on the left. "Wilson [size] 44" label in tail shows fine wear to match the rather sizeable team repairs present in the chest, shoulder and sleeve areas. Three letters in Payton's name have become slightly disengaged near the top, but not to the point that they inhibit display, and they could certainly be glued back down if desired. Payton's relevance to the sport of football is undeniable, and shortly before his death in 1999 he was ranked number eight on The Sporting News'</B> list of the hundred greatest football players. He was the highest-ranked Chicago Bear (just ahead of Dick Butkus at number nine) and the second-highest rated running back behind Jim Brown. Any game worn jersey from this iconic star is worthy of Canton and the finest football collections. LOA from Lou Lampson

Here is a size 44 which sold at Heritage for $4182.50

http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=703&Lot_No=19212&src=pr

Mid-1980's Walter Payton Game Worn Jersey.</I> When it comes to 1980's football jerseys, it doesn't get much sweeter than Sweetness, who entered the National Football League as the Chicago Bears' first round draft pick in 1975 and left it as the all-time leader in rushing and combined net yards. The jersey that most of us picture in our minds when we think of this sadly departed superstar is the style we present here, the navy blue mesh gamer sported by this rushing legend during the era of "The Super Bowl Shuffle." The number "34" on front, back and sleeves and "Payton" on rear nameplate are screened-on white with orange trim, and the font is unique and correct for a Bear's game jersey of the mid 1980's. The "GSH" screened-on designator, which is superimposed on the middle left sleeve stripe, is correct in font size and shape and helps date the jersey to the 1984-86 Bears Championship era, the later portion of Payton's illustrious career. There are no alterations of any kind to the jersey. Left front tail holds a proper "Wilson [size] 44" label. Wear is light but definite. A Hall of Fame caliber shirt, just like the man who wore it. LOA from Lou Lampson.</B>

Here is a size 46 which sold at Heritage for $4899.50

http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=701&Lot_No=19491&src=pr

Walter Payton Mid-1980s Game-Worn Chicago Bears Jersey</I> Prepare to do The Super Bowl Shuffle,</B> as this spectacular representation of "Sweetness"' blue mesh gamer dates directly from the era of that unforgettable Championship season. Considered the most desirable style of all Payton game worn jerseys, this specimen jumps ahead of the rare few that exist today with the offering of tremendous wear, particularly evident in the team repairs to the right sleeve (multiple), left sleeve and chest. Various scuffs and scrapes are particularly centralized around the shoulder area. Number "34" is screened in orange and white to chest, sleeves and back, where "Payton" is screened across a plate on the shoulders. The memorial "GSH" for "Pappa Bear" George Halas is present on the left sleeve. Proper "Wilson [size] 46" tagging appears in the lower left front tail. Finally, a blue sharpie signature rounds out the package on the rear numerals. With a lightly used, and damaged, representation selling for over $9,000 at auction in March of this year, we expect great interest in this far superior example. LOA from Dan Knoll, Dave Bushing & Lou Lampson/SCD Authentic.

[Eric]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

Here is a Walter Payton size 44 which sold at Grey Flannel for $1680

http://www.greyflannelauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=17303

Mild mannered off the field and smooth as butter on the field, the late HOFer Walter "Sweetness" Payton ran away with our hearts. Payton, a nine-time Pro Bowl choice, missed only one game in his career and earned his only Super Bowl ring in 1985. Payton was a versatile back whose runs always ended with him fighting for that extra yard. He accumulated 77 100-yard performances, 21,264 combined rushing/receiving yards and 125 career touchdowns. The right back tail has the "Wilson" manufacturers tag with jersey size "44." On the front, rear, and both sleeves is the player number "34" in white on orange heavy vinyl lettering. Below the numbers on the left sleeve is "GSH" in white on orange heavy vinyl lettering. There is a blue name plate on the rear with the name "PAYTON" in white on orange heavy vinyl lettering. The jersey shows little to no wear and appears to have no alterations of any kind.

[34swtns]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

See previous post.

I've seen every one of those you listed. In fact, I keep a database of all Bears Wilson jerseys sold at auction over the last few years and there have been even more Payton "gamers" sold on ebay. Substantially more.
All the wrong size.

Like I said before, I stopped trying to warn people because they don't want to listen. That's fine, it's their money.

And it's not just Payton who gets misrepresented size-wise. Most Bears "gamers" that have been sold at auction over the period of the last 4 years have all been fakes, in my opinion.
I have a size listing for most Bears "star" players from the 1980's and maybe 1 in 10 that comes up for sale is actually the right size for the player. And then there's the issue of game-use evidence. The Bears organization is well known for their (let's call it "frugallity"). Players were generally only given 2 home jerseys and 2 away jerseys per season. That being said, any legitimate Bears gamers would show substantial amounts of wear, including several team repairs. Most recent Bears "gamers" seem to have a lack of any serious wear. That coupled with the sizing issue discounts far more of these recent examples than substantiates them.
Bottom line....there's a whole lotta folks out there paying big money for items that are just simply not legitimate.

[34swtns]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

Oh, and as for your "size 42 that measures closer to a 44" question.........

my guess would be that the tagging has been switched.

I've never, and I repeat never, seen a legitimate Bears Wilson jersey (game used OR retail authentic) in which the size did not match the tag. I can't say unequivocally that they don't exist.......I've just never seen one. And I've had probably around a hundred go through my hands, for what that's worth.

[BULBUS]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

Doesn't all of these "game used" Payton jerseys selling on auction sites (including ebay) raise a red flag to the authenticators? I know that Walter enjoyed a nice career in the NFL, but there can not be that many legitamate gamers out there hitting the market. I feel bad for the buyers shelling out all that cash for a jersey that is not what they thought.

[commando]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

Authenticators unwittingly corner themselves over time... Let's say Authenticator "A" analyzed a 1994 Elway throwback jersey three years ago. At the time, he felt the tags looked good, the game use looked good, etc., so he issued a letter for the jersey. Lo and behold, a year later, another one comes across his path to be authenticated. It is similar to the one he authenticated the year before, so how can he NOT give his blessings on this one? What if THIS one is the real thing, and not the one from a year ago?

At this point he does what he has to do. He writes a letter for the second jersey too.

Of course, the authenticator is praying to Jah above that a third jersey doesn't come his way. He's also praying that at least one of those two jerseys stay tucked away in a private collection for a loooong time.

Ten years ago, scenarios like this would go unnoticed unless someone did a lot of homework on eBay and with auction catalogs. Today, thanks to this forum and other databases from collectors, the gig is up on authenticators who think they can just crank out letters into the great unknown.

[both-teams-played-hard]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

Here is a photo 34swtns posted a while back:

I also think it is likely a Wilson 42 could measure 22 inches from armpit to armpit, which would be a size 44 to some.

[34swtns]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

Like I said, anything's possible....... I've just never run across one that was tagged incorrectly.

Last year I bought a couple of mid 80's Bears defensive linesman's jerseys from a very prominant member of our forum. The seller he had contracted to sell them had listed both as "size 48 but measure more like a size 50 or 52". I don't know if that guy had a faulty tape measure or what, but both jerseys measured at dead-on 48 inches in the chest. Also, somebody had initially conned our fellow forum member into believeng that both jerseys were "game worn". So not only were they the wrong size for the respective players but they also had no evidence of game use, whatsoever.
Let me repeat......no evidence of game use on a mid 1980's Chicago Bears defensive lineman!
Ridiculous.

[lund6771]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

Regarding the Payton AMI jersey:

I've said it a hundred times already......Walter Payton only ever wore a size 42. From 1975 to 1988. First game to last game.....size 42.
This is fact, straight from the mouths of 2 former Bears equipment staffers and confirmed by a very respected Bears vintage gamer collector.
People who have bought or sold size 44's and 46's can get pissy and defensive all you want but it doesn't change the fact that if it's not a 42.....
IT'S A FAKE. Period.

I stopped alerting buyers/sellers, auction houses to this fact a long time ago. I've seen dozens of Payton "gamers" bought and sold that were nothing more than retail authentics doctored to look like gamers. Keep in mind, the Bears authentics of the 80's were EXACTLY like the gamers in every way. And Payton was the most popular Bear during this period so there are literally thousands of potential "gamers" floating around out there. But nobody wants to hear it. People refuse to believe that they've been had, and that's understandable. But it doesn't change the facts.

it's been said before...the beauty of this forum is that there are so many niche experts...34 has helped me on some Bears items...his knowledge is awesome!!

now I'm thouroughly confused about what to think...

A. 34swtns says that Payton didn't wear a size 44 until late in his career...

B. AMI has a dramatic discription of Payton carrying a satchel containing a jersey...the jersey is authenticated by the consignor...Lastly it is categorized by Dave O' brien as being one of the best in the hobby

Eric, can you set up a poll for forum members to vote A or B?

[RKGIBSON]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

In the November AMI auction they had a Walter Payton, lot 1, that was originally sourced from Bill Wade. That jersey was a size 44, early jersey. Went and tried to pull it up to look at the specifics it is not in their data base. ?? It had a letter from Wade stating how and when he got it. It is the only jersey I have seen that I thought had any type of provenace.

Roger

[CollectGU]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

it's been said before...the beauty of this forum is that there are so many niche experts...34 has helped me on some Bears items...his knowledge is awesome!!


A. 34swtns says that Payton didn't wear a size 44 until late in his career...

Correction. 34 is stating that Payton never wore a size 44 ever in his career.

[lund6771]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

This is almost a he said/she said kind of a thing with all of the Payton's that AMI has sold...If I was a looking for a Payton, I would talk to the most knowledgeable Bears collectors and attempt to make contacts within the team

I personally did that myself with the 49'ers in 1991 when I was in college...I bought a Joe Montana and made contact with Bronco Hinkek to show him the jersey and letter...he verified everything for me and I also developed a great contact for years...

My situation is very similar to 34Swtns...I mean, how do you NOT trust the statements from 2 employees and from a connected Bears collector?...were Lampson & Case in the locker room handling the Bears equipment?...Are Bears jerseys their expertise?...How many blounders has Lampson made over the years?

I'd personally feel more comfortable with 34's information than info from Lampson and Case...


Easy decision