-
-
Re: Joe Montana Game Used Lid?
In November of 1991 I was in the 49er's equipment room and the EM sold me a Jerry Rice jersey and TYPED me a letter right on the spot
There's to many things that don't add up on this thing for me to feel comfortable about owning it...
1. 90% feedback
2. The seller is some sort of a dealer and the BIN is extremely low for such a rare piece...that is a big one for me...I've always lived by the philosophy that if it seams like a steal, there's probably a reason for it
3. The decal needs explanation
4. There has been no date code established or interior pics provided
5. Show me one pic of a Montana auto ANYWHERE that matches the Signiture on the LOA....
6. The stationary is 100% not from the team...I've had many jerseys from his era and Roger is right on
WAY to many things that don't add up and I'd be highly suprised if the black mark ends up on the video...
If it shows up in auction, and if anyone wants the videos...LMK
I'd be suprised if any auto authenticator would sign off on the LOA sig as being good, so maybe it'll never get to auctionComment
-
Re: Joe Montana Game Used Lid?
Mvandor...
would you like copies of the videos?...if it goes in an auction somewhere, and than you can know for sure... Assuming the date code matches up...
regardless of what the letter is or isn't, there will be no question with videosComment
-
Re: Joe Montana Game Used Lid?
No thank you, but I appreciate the offer. My comfort level was not yet reached on the piece (although the letter itself was not the focal point of my concern), as I had requested the date stamp info and specific additional pics to compare to those cited in this thread, but never heard back from the seller. In the interim the piece was purchased through BIN.
Perhaps if this piece resurfaces as a flip, we can all revisit this again.Comment
-
Re: Joe Montana Game Used Lid?
given that i know zero about autographs i found the discussion concerning the montana sig on the team letter very interesting (although i'm a little confused as to why it seemed to get somewhat heated!). frankly i don't know how sig authentication companies go about nailing these things - how they can can conclusively determine whether a sig is authentic or not unless it was painfully obvious - done in crayon by a four-year-old perhaps!
take montana's sig in general - to my untrained eye each of the sigs in the photos that roger provided of the jerseys strike me as very different. and taking a quick look through american memorabilia i see at least a couple of psa/dna montana sigs that seem to be rather consistent with the ebay team letter (including lots 385, 519). in short, to my untrained eye it seems that montana's sig can vary wildly. btw roger i hope you know that i'm not questioning the authenticty of the sigs in your photos - i'm just pointing out that there doesn't seem to be such a thing as a "typical" montana sig!
lund6771 - i'm not sure if i'm following your comments regarding the black mark on the stripe of the ebay helmet. if this mark didn't show up in better game photos or game video it wouldn't disqualify the helmet as being that particular helmet. the mark could have easily occurred after the game. i have many helmets that have marks on them that i know weren't there when i obtained them - marks that even look like transfer paint from game contact. but if such a mark could be found in better game photos or game video i would think it would indeed support the helmet's authenticity...
anyway, going on just the photos of the ebay ad and those supplied by mvandor i would say there's a lot to like about the helmet. further, the ebayers history didn't strike me as particularly sinister - one buyer is claiming a bait and switch but his positive feedback far outweighs the lone negative feedback...
...robertComment
-
Re: Joe Montana Game Used Lid?
Aneneous....
I'm not a helmet guy, but I really enjoy reading your posts and it's got me intrigued with helmets now...when I see a lot of the pictures that you post when matching items, it doesn't seem that it's a much different process than matching jerseys
for myself, a photo of style match is not good enough to belong in my collection....I go and get the videos of the suppossed game or year that something was worn in and match it that way
When I finally do find the video match, there are so many items that make it match up...not only repairs and hit marks, but EXACT locations of sleeve stripes, NFL shields, sewn on numerals, loose threads...etc etc
It's amazing once you find an exact video match, how many more things start jumping out at you that to make it an identical match...And all of these items are completely different once the player starts wearing a new jersey
the differences are so subtle to the naked eye, but when viewed in this fashion, it's crystal clear...
From my very limited knowledge of helmets...I would assume the same process could be done with matching them....warning label loactions, wear that is on the videos found in videos....the way that the stripes sit on top of the helmet (rarely are they on there perfectly placed)...the 49'ers logo placement...etc etc...the black mark would be maybe 1 out of 20 items to search for
It would seem to me that it would be very easy to match these items...they show close-ups of Montana hundreds of times during a game
FWIW...I almost bought a Montana jersey that came with Bronco Hinek letter a few years ago...the seller sent me photos of the letter and of the jersey...the jersey had lots of dirt and grass stains on it...problem was that after viewing ALL of the videos from 2 seasons, it wasn't close to any game...so I passed on it...I could have easiliy boughten it, "flipped" it to an auction house and made a bunch of $...but I didn't because the wear that was on that jersey was not put on by Joe Montana during a game
It sounds like there is more to this discussion than if the helmet is the real deal or not...it sounds to me that people are looking for it to be "good enough" to "flip" and not concerned enough with it being 100% accurateComment
-
Re: Joe Montana Game Used Lid?
Robert,
I do have some experience with paperwork and numbers verification. It is a big deal in my line of work. I have testified as a expert witness is several cases of fraud on auto related things. This 49er letter is like a birth certificate for this helmet, its pedigree. It is where it originated, supposedly. Being in the game used community from the old day when we had no internet, Getty, and so on, paperwork meant a lot. To me it still does. To evaluate paperwork, or anything for that matter, you need first hand knowledge of real examples to know . I have owned probably 30 to 40 49er jerseys with team paperwork. I have several examples from this era in my possession. I'm sure your knowledge of helmets did not come from looking at E-bay. Real hands on evaluations is how you become as knowledgable as you are. You cannot learn as much as you know from books. I hope you agree with me on that.
In evaluating items there are similarties that are typical on most. There are exceptions and they do not lend credibility without proof. On the letter it does not seem to be typical of examples I have. That is all I said. I posted thing that made me believe that and pictures to back it up. I questioned the item without totally discrediting it.
The autograph is not typical in several ways. I always use examples that I absolutely know or believe to be real. I have no faith in any of these paid authenicators. Their record is tainted at best. The helmet autoraph is good in my opinion. The letter is not. The biggest problem I have with the autograph is the detached loop at the end of the name. All the autographs, that I know are real, this is connected by line to the last of the name. This loop was put on after he finished signing. There are what I believe to be problems with the word Joe to. Really everything about this signature is suspect. The "J" is the best part. With a couple trys you could duplicate that. This letter get back to the origin, how it came from Joe. If it is not authentic it sure puts the credibilty of the helmet in question. The fact that you determined he wore this type helmet for a short period and cannot say it is not the one he worn has lended credibility. When I first saw it on E-bay I thought not his style and the letter is suspect and blew it off. Your research opened eyes and I commend you for that. I look forward to your post and understanding your thoughts. I believe like Lund says, a video search would probably validate or discredit this. When you find a real picture of any item, everything is correct. I buy the flag being added like every other 49er helmet. There will be hundreds of images of Joe in these game DVD's.
I am going to drop the whole subject now. It has sold. He obviously was OK with all the issues raised.
RogerComment
-
Re: Joe Montana Game Used Lid?
I knew Paul many years ago. Visited him at his house in San Jose back around 1995. He befriended many of the players, including Joe. He was full of stories about the niners of the glory years. He claimed that he would trade guns and workout equipment for GU items directly from the players, including JM. The picture of him w/ JOe seems tobear that out. I got a 1986 JM jersey from him that was 100% legit; but it actually came to him in a trade for some steve young stuff from a niner collector named Cooper...Cooper's 'trademark' was to have the player sign the jersey on the NOB on the first letter in a vertical style..mine had that...It sold for $16K in Vintage auction 3 years ago. I got an air helmet from Paul with a letter from Joe as well. Tha is now in the collection of a top QB collector....My take is that some of Paul's stuff was good; some was not; whether he realized it or not is not for me to say. At the end of the day Paul was a good source but when it comes to a helmet such as this...photo match is the only way to authenticate. If someone has the GFC catalogs from about 8-10 years ago I think this helmet was sold at auction by them...It went low because most collectors did not realize Joe wore Riddell for a brief period.Comment
-
Re: Joe Montana Game Used Lid?
Hi Gridman....hearing you tell these stories about Paul brings me back down memory lane...I heard them as well...I met him in the early 90's
We still don't know if "Paul" in the letter is Gaines or not...
On a side note, by any chance did you see any of the Cowboys jerseys that he had that he said he recieved from Kevin Gogan?Comment
-
Re: Joe Montana Game Used Lid?
sorry partner, I remember Paul telling me about Gogan but I never did see his Cowboys stuff....I don't know what became of Paul. I heard a rumor that he moved up to Washington or Oregon...I'm not quite sure...Comment
-
Re: Joe Montana Game Used Lid?
lund6771 - gotcha. i guess i misunderstood your comment about the black mark on the stripe because, as i mentioned, imo its absence in a photo or video frame would not disqualify the helmet as authentic. you are obviously a savvy collector and understand the importance of research when it comes to example comparison/matching - but imo game used helmets are surprisngly difficult to photo match for many reasons. for example, throughout the season decals can be replaced, facemasks can be swapped out, identifying paint transfers can be buffed out, etc., etc.. and of course the helmets are reconditioned at the end of the year. in short a helmet can actually look quite different from game to game and season to seaon. not to mention that the number of quality closeup photos is also surprisingly small - even when it comes to the game's greatest players.
rkgobson - very, very interesting read and thanks very much for taking the time to go into so much detail. if the team letter is not authentic i would say it casts serious doubts on the helmet. but then it could be a case of an authentic helmet coupled with a fake letter in an effort to increase the helmet's value. whatever the deal i'm just glad i was never bitten by the sig bug - it clearly requires a level of expertise far greater than what i would ever be able to achieve! i'll stick to looking at helmets!
gridman80 - i thought i recognized the helmet as well but don't have it in my database. gfc used to archive their auctions and i have many photos from those sales but not this one. further i have quite a few photos of other game used wd1 niners lids sold over the years and none of them are this helmet.
...robertComment
-
Re: Joe Montana Game Used Lid?
I know this is an old, old thread but what is really interesting about it is that even a thread this old has its value. I just visited "Cooper" last weekend and and he still has a great 49ers collection, just a bit smaller as i have had the good fortune to be able to buy a number of the great shirts he has. One of the Steve Young shirts mentioned in this post i was able to buy. He had traded a mid 80s Montana for 2 Steve Young 1993 gamers with team letters back in 1993. Cooper had 5 Montana shirts at the time and Young was a favorite of his so he made the trade. Another of the Montana shirts was sold via AMI then via Grey Flannel as part of the Gibson collection. Cooper still owns Montana's last 49er gamer and i have an 1989 Russell that he sold me with Bronco letter. Cooper has 49er jerseys from 1946 thru 1994 and in fact has every HOF niner gamer. These kinds of collections are few and far between and i feel lucky that i was able to see 50 years of 49er glory. When Cooper was collecting the game used hobby was in its infancy with things done on a very personal level. His collection came straight out of the locker room sometimes within days of the player wearing the shirt. The Montana i have was worn one week and in his hands the next. The friendship and bonding that took place between the seller (the 49ers) and the fan does not happen anymore and it is sad. Football has become big big fu*king business and thats it. The entire situation is sad as now we have no football and very bleak prospects for Football in the 2011 season.
I mainly collect shirts from the 1988-1994 49ers teams with my main focus the 1994 team. Buying todays players is something that should be done because you like the player, team etc not to make $$$. It seems with all the shirts these guys wear that another is always just around the corner. Try that with a 1988-1994 49er shirt as many were worn the entire season, not just one game. I have a Romo 1993 shirt that was worn the entire season and has at least 30 repairs. Try and find a shirt like that in a player from the last 5 years. One repair and the shirt shows "great use". The game used uniform collecting world has changed over the last 20 years just like the rest of the world. I just hope that us collectors can keep the hobby fun, safe and that the good shirts find their way into the right collections!Comment
-
Re: Joe Montana Game Used Lid?
Hmmmm.... Thanks for bringing this thread back to memory, a discussion from many moons ago. Joe Montana 49ers lid? American flag decal? Sounds Scoreboard-ish to me.Comment
Tweet
Comment